A question about Sarries

[AKWasp]

The cap is just under £9m correct? Means that Sarries are over by ~10% which is obscene.

Considering most squads aim for a squad of at least 45, that means an average wage of just about £200k which could be that they’re over by 4 players, or 2 top tier players. That volume of quality/depth would be a huge loss, especially considering how much further we’ve regressed when we’ve lost 4 locks

[mike909]

Not that I am a cynic....but to afford 5 of 8 of the England starting pack and an SA starting prop, plus several other Lions players in the backs is a club that's unlikely to be paying low wages.

And nothing has been seen to have changed in the squad - in a meaningful sense

[AKWasp]

I won’t lie to you Mike, I don’t think you’re a cynic

Frustrating that to all of us it’s so obvious somethings not right yet there doesn’t seem to be any meaningful action

[BG]

The cap is just under £9m correct? Means that Sarries are over by ~10% which is obscene.

Considering most squads aim for a squad of at least 45, that means an average wage of just about £200k which could be that they’re over by 4 players, or 2 top tier players. That volume of quality/depth would be a huge loss, especially considering how much further we’ve regressed when we’ve lost 4 locks

I think its around £7m + EPS, Academy, Injury credits + 2 Marquee.

In previous threads I think we've worked out their various credits might amount £500 - £600k.

Itoje or Fazza will be one marquee and then possibly Williams, Skelton or Koch as the other.

[mike909]

I won’t lie to you Mike, I don’t think you’re a cynic

Frustrating that to all of us it’s so obvious somethings not right yet there doesn’t seem to be any meaningful action

Moi 

I think it has to go to the chairs of the clubs to instigate action. No club with 7 Lions starters are playing low wages and yet we're assured "all is well" And I've had to give up posting elsewhere due to EA apologists....

[BG]

I won’t lie to you Mike, I don’t think you’re a cynic

Frustrating that to all of us it’s so obvious somethings not right yet there doesn’t seem to be any meaningful action

Moi 

I think it has to go to the chairs of the clubs to instigate action. No club with 7 Lions starters are playing low wages and yet we're assured "all is well" And I've had to give up posting elsewhere due to EA apologists....

The DM comments section seems to be constantly monitored by Sarries blinkered apologists.. If anyone dares to point out the obvious they are shot down in flames.. almost as if a PR team is trying to constantly win the social media battle

[Neils]

Did you expect anything less from The Nigel?

[wasps]

I think the cap is either £6.4m or £7m
Plus
Up to £600k academy credits

The current level of the Salary Cap for 2017-18 is £7m, plus two Excluded Players whose salaries sit outside the cap, enabling clubs to recruit and retain world class talent. Within the £7 million Salary Cap ceiling, clubs are encouraged to develop home grown talent by accessing up to £600,000 of Home Grown Player Credits.

I'm undecided with the language used whether the case level of the cap is £7m and then you add on £600k for your home grown players, or if it's £7m including that allowance.



On top of that, you get up to £80k player who represents England (not other nations)

a new England Senior EPS or International Player Credit of up to £80,000 per player has been introduced to cover for player absence during international periods

They probably have 9 or 10 England EPS players. For arguments sake, I'll say 10 and assume they get the full £80k.


Best case scenario, their full salary cap is £8.4m


There's also the overrun tax of £350k. So if I'm being charitable, they can spend up to £8.75m

and there is a new overrun tax on any Salary spend of up to 5% over the Base level (5% being £350,000 in 2017-18).

Let's assume that Vincent Koch and Owen Farrell are the 2 marquee players, and that Itoje is on the rumoured £750k.

Their highest paid players are presumably therefore:

Itoje - £750k
Billy V - £500k
Maku V - £500k
Liam Williams - £500k
Jamie George - £400k
George Kruis - £400k
Elliott Daly - £400k

Those 7 listed above come to £3.45m

I would also assume that Brad Barritt, Richard Wigglesworth and Will Skelton are well paid too.

Adding these 3 in as well, that's probably half their cap gone in 10 players + 2 marquees.


Their squad is 41 players, so the remaining 29 players are sharing ~£4m between them, which is about £140k each



To be honest, put like that it doesn't seem so crazy, especially if there's any truth that some players would play for £25k-£50k per year before market value of they're likely to win stuff.

However, as Mike909 says, the real proof is that no other club can even come close to putting that kind of squad together

[Hymenoptera]

erm... Maitland, Goode, Arm breaker..the list is endless.

[mike909]

It was the way the interviewer last w/e asked a Munster rep if they had prepared differently against a side that added 400 caps to its team

It was as if that was normal.....

[Marlow Nick]

The cap is £6.4m which is what every club is entitled to spend. On top of that credits can be earns for academy and England players which stretch the limit for some clubs to £7m. On top of that two players can be excluded as marquee. Academy players have their own separate cap but academy is defined as less that £35k salary so the moment a player is paid more they're in the main squad. The cap used to be much lower and every club could afford to pay the maximum but then Saracens were caught cheating and as part of the settlement the cap was raised to a level that not all clubs could afford and that still wasn't enough for Saracens who just got caught cheating again. Much is made by some that the overspend was only around £500k per annum. My bet is Saracens are spending a lot more than that it's just they only got caught cheating to that amount. The rest is better hidden. Nigel has said in the past that he thinks the cap is wrong and would not be embarrassed to be caught cheating it. Expect him to carry on cheating.

In principle any club could afford a first 15 of quality to match Saracens but there would be little left for the other 30 squad players (look at Bristol as an example). What makes it so obvious Saracens are cheating is the quality of their second 15. They win many of their matches because there is no drop off in quality when their subs come on in the last 20 minutes.

[BG]

Thanks for clearing the figures up Marlow Nick.

Also the £80k EPS credit is a max figure.. not all players will accrue that amount as it depends on how much that player is used.

Referring to Mike909's post about the pre-match Munster game interviews - it was obvious that McCall had been primed by the Sarries PR dept to try and mention as many times he could that a lot of the capped players came through their academy (aren't they a wonderful club to be with with etc blah blah blah)... there's no consideration as to how they attract and importantly, keep, so much top quality that may have started in their lower ranks.

[Marlow Nick]

The key question is less about recruitment and more about how do Saracens manage to retain so many world class players. Maybe they deserve some sort of compensation for developing players but so do Sale who gave Wasps so many (and are now taking some off Wasps). The current rules as agreed by Saracens are intended to have a roughly level squad coat and hence squad quality. For most teams that means making difficult choices about who to retain and who to let go. Somehow that doesn't apply to Saracens. All the talk of academies, EPS and London weighting are all just a smokescreen for the main issue - how can Saracens claim to be compliant with the rules they agreed to follow?
It smelt bad 12 months ago. It still stinks this season.

Part of me hopes Saracens make it to 4th place and then win the playoffs because it will show what a joke it has become that they can still win despite a 35 point handicap. Maybe that would've enough to force the apologists to acknowledge how much they are skewing the league.