Always a Wasp

Author Topic: It is being released [allegedly]  (Read 8275 times)

Neils

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Re: It is being released [allegedly]
« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2020, 10:54:38 AM »
The EA apologists are in full vent in both TRP and the Sundsy Jones. Fortunately David Walsh in the ST gives a very good appraisal. He was the Armstrong journalist and he doesn't hold back. I have hard copy but worth posting if someone can get beyond the paywall.
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Shugs

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Re: It is being released [allegedly]
« Reply #46 on: January 26, 2020, 01:16:34 PM »
Yes, I genuinely can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading. Who in their right mind could defend them.

NellyWellyWaspy

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Re: It is being released [allegedly]
« Reply #47 on: January 26, 2020, 01:37:55 PM »
Yes, I genuinely can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading. Who in their right mind could defend them.

Anybody who is corrupt or has a financial interest in so doing. Just shows how many piggies have their noses in the trough.

backdoc

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Re: It is being released [allegedly]
« Reply #48 on: January 26, 2020, 03:19:29 PM »
Half the British establishment supported the actions of Lenin and Stalin.

wasps

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Re: It is being released [allegedly]
« Reply #49 on: January 26, 2020, 03:57:39 PM »

I am feeling sightly conflicted, and while I don't believe they have any defence, it's beginning to feel like there are some mitigating factors.

Although it all depends how true any of the reports you read online are.


There's a suggestion that the type of deals that have been stuck with the Vunipola's, Ashton, Wigglesworth etc have been done a number of times in the past.
I don't think that would come as a surprise to any of us, particularly when you hear what Brendan Ventner had to say.... And wasn't it Jim Hamilton who a few months ago said he still lives in a house that Nigel helped him get?

Nigel Wray suggests that previous similar deals years ago were signed off by premier rugby (i.e. the salary cap manager)
Is this true? How similar were they, and what makes these more recent deals more illegal than those old ones?

There's also an article in the guardian that says that the only benefit that the vunipolas get is that they don't have to pay any interest on the amount that Nigel and co have invested (i.e. if they'd gone to the banks for £500k (the amount Nigel put in) they'd have to pay a significant amount of interest on it), and that it's only the interest amount saved that should be considered salary..... And more to the point, with Wray's deals in the past it has only been the interest that has counted as salary.


So what has changed?

1) maybe it's complete bullshit and Nigel has never had any deals like this signed off in the past

2) premier rugby have changed their rules on what is / isn't allowed.
If it's this, it should be quite clear cut and I'm surprised that a change in rules hasn't been highlighted

3) these recent deals are significantly different from the previous deals that have been struck - maybe a case of Nigel continually pushing the boundaries of what is allowed.
This seems the most likely to be true. Nigel's statement suggests that he restructured the deals based on tax (avoidance?) advice.



I can see that in one sense Saracens aren't doing anything significantly different what they say they've been doing for years, and which they say premier rugby had previously approved.
In that sense, I can see why it would seem that they're being punished severely

However, on the other hand, it seems to be a sign and an acknowledgement that they've massively cheated in the same way over an extended period of time and somehow managed to massage the details sufficiently in the past to get it approved PRL who probably didn't see a massive problem at first..... Once that precedent is set though, we end up where we are now.





InBetweenWasp

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Re: It is being released [allegedly]
« Reply #50 on: January 27, 2020, 09:47:15 AM »
Well, wasps, you’d probably enjoy reading some of the sections of the report that talk about the deals (From memory, I think it was something like Paragraph 148 that begins to discuss the structures of the deals and how/why they fell outside of the cap), it’ll make things much clearer.

The line from Saracens/Wray has been that this is about preparing the players for life after rugby, which from the way the deals are structured just isn’t true.  It might be about preparing their bank accounts for life after rugby, but there’s no suggestion that it is about teaching the players how to invest in property, or that it is the players putting the money in and Wray essentially providing a small amount of additional capital in exchange for advice, or insight.

The only person putting capital into the property deals with Mako, Billy and Wigglesworth was Wray.  The only person who risked losing money (unless the property value fell by something like 20-30%) was Wray.  Despite not necessarily needing to put a penny into the deals, the players stood to end up with 70-80% equity in a property they didn’t have to front anything for (other than be the guarantor on a mortgage which would ultimately be paid by rental income).

Ashton’s property deal was very different.  It was essentially an in-season loan given to help him buy a property.  It was due to be repaid in the same season (and thus wouldn’t count as Salary) but he asked for a short break in repayments and so the loan ended up spanning two seasons and thus counted as salary.  In the end, the Toulon owner settled the loan for him when he moved to France.

Itoje’s image rights deal I haven’t read through, but need to.  It’ll be interesting to see what they say about the image rights deal - The snippets in the press suggest that PRLs own auditors (PWC) provided the £1.6m valuation of Maro’s Image Rights company to Wray, but PRL disagreed with it.  Apparently, Wray also says in his witness statement that the PWC valuation wasn’t a reliable valuation either.  I do wonder whether this, combined with the £95k paid to him for commercial appearances from Lucy Wray’s company (with no evidence of an appearance ever having been made) and that supposedly despite being one of the leagues most valuable players he isn’t in the Top 10 Premiership earners for his position might have made the valuation largely irrelevant.

DGP Wasp

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Re: It is being released [allegedly]
« Reply #51 on: January 27, 2020, 10:35:08 AM »
The "preparing for life after rugby" spin drives me nuts!  I've not heard of any of Sarries' less high profile players benefiting from St Nigel's kind hearted generosity and concern for their long term future.  Farrell, Itoje, Vunipola x 2, Ashton; these are all very well-known players and will not be short of offers and opportunities after retirement: coaching, media, after dinner circuit, I'm a Celeb/Strictly, or even opportunities in the corporate world are not hard to come by when you are a well-known international sportsman.  If these gestures were born out of genuine concern for players' long-term futures, then it would be the wider squad players that we'd be reading about now, not the big star names.

I think of Alex Reider and Sam Jones who both had to retire early and never enjoyed anything like the kind of profile of those mentioned above.  They now have to begin a new career path without a public profile that opens doors quite so readily.  It was great to read on here recently of Sam's successful restaurant.

Daeg

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Re: It is being released [allegedly]
« Reply #52 on: January 27, 2020, 11:39:35 AM »
The "preparing for life after rugby" spin drives me nuts!  I've not heard of any of Sarries' less high profile players benefiting from St Nigel's kind hearted generosity and concern for their long term future.  Farrell, Itoje, Vunipola x 2, Ashton; these are all very well-known players and will not be short of offers and opportunities after retirement: coaching, media, after dinner circuit, I'm a Celeb/Strictly, or even opportunities in the corporate world are not hard to come by when you are a well-known international sportsman.  If these gestures were born out of genuine concern for players' long-term futures, then it would be the wider squad players that we'd be reading about now, not the big star names.

I think of Alex Reider and Sam Jones who both had to retire early and never enjoyed anything like the kind of profile of those mentioned above.  They now have to begin a new career path without a public profile that opens doors quite so readily.  It was great to read on here recently of Sam's successful restaurant.

This.

Nothing exposes the vacuousness of Wray's (and the EAs)arguments than this. There is a moral and ethical vacuum at Sarries and this focus on providing for the already wealthy and successful is the evidence of that. If they really cared they'd have set up a premiership wide foundation in conjunction with other owners; or failing that just a Sarries foundation open to all players/ex-players. What they actually did was targetted at those players they considered of most value to the squad.

Its basically a modern version of the old-boys club.   

Neils

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Re: It is being released [allegedly]
« Reply #53 on: January 27, 2020, 12:20:21 PM »
Nice to see no EAs in Euro player of the year listings (didn't want to start a thread for just this).
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Neils

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Re: It is being released [allegedly]
« Reply #54 on: January 27, 2020, 05:15:42 PM »
Nicked from DW (Marlow NIck) -

Quote:
Brian Moore
Silly legal claims and PR blunders just lose Saracens sympathy - here's my dos and don'ts for addressing salary cap breach

Brian Moore 27 January 2020 • 7:30am

As one of 13 golden shareholders in Premiership Rugby Limited, the body that runs the Premiership, Saracens have a responsibility for the way they conduct themselves

So much comment has been made about the judgment of Lord Dyson into Saracens’ salary cap breaches that it must be difficult for non-lawyers and rugby fans to know truth from fiction. So, let me distil the whole matter into a few essential points.

Saracens are one of 13 golden shareholders in Premiership Rugby Limited, the body that runs the Premiership. As such, they are as responsible for the way it conducts itself, and its rules, as any of its competitors.

The salary-cap rules, the way they are overseen and the sanctions for breaches were unanimously agreed. They cannot claim they did not know what was in them or what could happen if they broke them. It is ludicrous to contend, as they did, that the cap itself is illegal.

In 2015 Saracens had to come to a settlement with PRL over the salary cap, described by Dyson as a “yellow card”. This was a reminder, if any were needed, of the rules and their seriousness. Regulation 6.13 states: “If a Club wishes to clarify the meaning or applicability of any of the Regulations, it shall contact the Salary Cap Manager (SCM) in writing...” The SCM is mandated to respond and anything that might break the rules can be clarified before a club actions it.

Given all this, why did Saracens not get clarification from the SCM before making the payments that broke the rules? Nobody from the club has given any reason – beyond saying it was down to a lack of communication between the family office of Nigel Wray and the club’s administration, which they claim they are rectifying – for not doing so. They cannot, therefore, complain the prevailing view is there appears to be no clear explanation.

Knowing what was in the judgment before it was formally released, the way the club handled this crisis is an object lesson in how not to do so. So here is a top 10 legal and PR “DO NOTS” for Saracens re salary cap. Do not:

- Claim regulations you scrutinised and agreed to abide by are now illegal, especially when your two main witnesses contradict this submission.
- Claim the cap hinders you in Europe when you are three-time and current winners. That submission, added to your claim that you were within the cap, means you either were not being truthful or the point is nonsense.
- Submit a witness statement on claimed matters of fact that appears to be largely a cut and paste from the testimony of another person (as then-chief executive Mitesh Velani did).
- Allege a main witness (Mark McCafferty) is untruthful and some evidence is inaccurate if you cannot prove it. This undermines assertions on other issues.
- Angrily say one of the most respected judges in England got it wrong because your legal advisers tell you so. His opinion is what matters and theirs has been confounded.
- Threaten to appeal and then fail to do so. It looks weak and lessens the impact of any later threats.
- Selectively brief supposedly supportive journalists. I do not care; it makes no difference to my opinion and my job does not require this, but most do, and they will not give you the benefit of the doubt when they later write.
- Assume the full report may not become publicly available. If you make claims about what it said you will be judged accordingly.
- Contend the phrase “not deliberate” means the panel thought you acted innocently. The judgment was very critical of you and ruled that you acted recklessly and your behaviour was egregious.
- Initially refuse to apologise and then later apologise. Nobody believes it is sincere and it suggests you knew you were wrong but did not have the courage to admit it – that, or your values are awry.

Top 1 “DO”:

- Apologise as fully and early as you can and take your punishment without complaint and certainly without claiming you have been hard done to, when you know the panel did you a favour and halved the agreed sanctions.

I admire many things about this club but their ludicrous legal claims and subsequent public relations blunders extinguished most people’s residual sympathy. Worse, they obscured the club’s outstanding achievements in nurturing talent and forging a winning team; things that cannot be done by just spending more money than anyone else. The case they should make is that clubs whose academy players turn out to be England stars should have a discount on the cap for each academy year; otherwise they are penalised for benefiting the English game.
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