Your England match day squad

[wasps]

Forget EPS, forget Eddie Jones, forget injuries, forget anyone that may be playing overseas.


What 23 players do you select for a must win England game tomorrow?

Ideally this should be an actual team that you'd want to take to the field if you were in charge.
It therefore doesn't necessarily have to be based purely on playing ability, you can include other factors such as team dynamic, credit in the bank or anything else if you feel that it adds value to the overall team.



I suspect there will be some standard selections (particularly given that this is a wasps board). So don't feel that it's necessary to explain why you might select Joe launchbury or Jack Willis.
But if you choose someone unexpected, it'd be interesting to know the justification

[Shugs]

Great question Wasps. I'd go with.

LH Vunipola
Hooker Cowan-Dickie
TH Stuart
Lock Itoje
Lock Launchbury
6 Willis
7 Curry
8 Dombrandt
9 Robson
10 Smith
11 May
12 Lawrence
13 Slade
14 Watson
15 Ashton

Bench Genge, Singleton, Sinckler, Lawes, Underhill, Spencer, Simmonds, Bassett.

[Heathen]

Malins at FB.

[backdoc]

You are forgetting that we select on talent and form whilst the England Head Coach selects on.......

I am not as impressed by Underhill as some are. I would have the other Curry or Simmonds on the bench.

[matelot22]

My over all 23 not tooo different from Shugs, with a few swaps between bench and starting berths, but only 2 or 3 different squad choices

Vunipola
George
Sinckler
Itoje
Launchbury
Willis
Curry
S Simmonds
Robson
Smith
May
Farrell (for want of a proven alternative
Slade
Watson
Malins (I think he could really go on to big things)

Bench: Cowan Dickie, Genge, Stuart, Hill/Lawes, Underhill, Spencer, J Simmonds, Daly

[InBetweenWasp]

15. Malins
14. May
13. Tuilagi (but injured i'd be happy to see Slade with Daly to cover 11,13,14 and 15 from the bench)
12. Farrell (he's out of form at the moment and don't have an alternative 12 who is more solid, or particularly creative)
11. Thorley (although Watson hasn't really done anything wrong)
10. Ford (although i'd be happy to see any of Smith, Umaga or Simmonds given a go)
9. Robson

1. Vunipola
2. J George
3. Sinkler
4. M Itoje
5. J Launchbury
6. J Willis
7. S Underhill
8. T Curry (Personally, I think it's a strong carrying back-row and not yet sure we'd miss Billy all that much)

Bench: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Stuart, Lawes, Simmonds/Earl (tricky call), Spencer, Smith, Daly

It's an interesting exercise.  What's evident is that other than a handful of changes (most seemingly want to see a different 8/9/10 spine and a different 15), it's evolution not revolution wanted by us mere mortal fans.

I think the bigger issue is that really, we just want to see a different style of play.  We've seen Enland play with pace, power and position and good number of times over Eddie's reign so I think we're all head-scratching a bit over why we've seemingly gone backwards. 

Other contentious issues amongst fans seem to be:

-- Daly isn't an international 15 (yet was brilliant on the Wing for the Lions) and has never been given a go at 13, his natural position
-- Whilst players and pundits love him, i'm yet to read a fan who doesn't think Youngs is too slow/ponderous for us.  I like Spencer as a hybrid between a kicking/attacking 9 and think Robson also has the cute chips, kicks and grubbers (as well as the pace) to open teams up.  He can really vary his game at times and keep defences guessing - a bit like Care of old
-- People want to squeeze Jack in and there doesn't seem to be much love for Billy.  From listening to the pundits, he's doing the unflashy grunt work rather than the dazzling carries of old because teams are man-marking him.  I think we'd get better mobility and more turnovers swapping him for Curry at 8 and squeezing Jack it without losing anything.  In fact, perhaps we add another lineout jumper
-- What to do at 10.  Is Ford the problem, is it the tactics, or is it slow ball from Youngs and a lack of attacking foresight from Farrell outside him.  No-one seems to feel Faz is a 10 for England, but most fairly happy with him at 12 for a lack of other options.  So I think we want to see another 10 blooded - I think most fans are fairly indifferent over whether that's Smith, Umaga or Simmonds.  They all have cases for a go in the shirt

So really, it doesn't seem Eddie is that far off and, frankly, he's probably bang on the money when it comes to winning games.  I just think as fans, we'd like to see a bit more excitement and energy in the way England choose to play.

[westwaleswasp]

15. Malins
14. May
13. Joseph
12. Farrell
11. Watson
10. Ford
9. Robson

1. Vunipola
2. J George
3. Sinkler
4. M Itoje
5. J Launchbury
6. J Willis
7. Curry
8. Vunipola

The italics are more questionable picks.

Bench (5/2)
Cowan dickie, Genge, Stewart, Lawes,  Underhill, Daly, Spencer
Or bench
4/3
Cowan Dickie, Genge, Stewart, Lawes, Daly, Spencer, Slade

Malins is class, and offers flexibility all over the pitch. Watson can play 15 or wing, and him and May are our best wingers. Daly's fullback exploits have been done to death here. He is not one, but he can play wing or 13 and has a long range boot, if it ends up in torrential conditions where penalties are king and a 9 point lead is nearly unassailable.   
I think Farrell is not going anywhere given his boot and his age, and he is a better 12 than a 10. If it rains (the OP said tomorrow, and I am assuming in the NH) and I want control, and he does have a decent kicking game. He has lots of experience, even if much of it is getting away with no arms tackles.

I tried to pick a team to play rugby, but one who can switch to a more limited plan if needed, the opposite of how we are set up now.

[Montague Withnail]

I've been posting on various rugby forums for donkeys' years but only very recently here. I never realised picking Robson to start for England without getting a load of grief would be so liberating!

15. Slade
14. Cokanasiga (get fit and back on form first)
13. Tuilagi (Lawrence when MT is injured, or in other words, Lawrence)
12. Farrell
11. May
10. Smith
9. Robson
8. Billy
7. Curry
6. Jack
5. Lawes
4. Itoje
3. Will
2. George
1. Mako

LCD
Genge
Sinckler
Jonny Hill
Earle
Underhill
Youngs
Jacob

[wasps]

InbetweenWasp...
That was my exact reason for making this post

I was curious to see which makes would be in most people's teams and how that would differ from Eddie's.

I refrained from posting my own team, but mainly because I was really struggling to select an 8, 10 and 15.
However, I'd forgotten Malina, and he may solve one of those positions



On the whole, I think most people dislike Eddie's public persona, or are at least irritated by some of the things he says.
That leads to such vehement arguments when in fact he's probably selecting 20 of the same players as most of us would select.
You're also probably correct that the style of play is also a factor. Maybe it's more of a thing as a Wasps fan given we've had a few years of playing some scintillating attacking rugby (and some dire, boring stuff)

[westwaleswasp]

Persona is important though. As an Englishman in Wales I had years of bull about English arrogance thrown at me, all untrue- until now- Eddie's public team talks are for everyone else apart from England. Every time he settles down and you think he has perhaps learnt his lesson, he pipes up. 
   

[InBetweenWasp]

On the whole, I think most people dislike Eddie's public persona, or are at least irritated by some of the things he says.
That leads to such vehement arguments when in fact he's probably selecting 20 of the same players as most of us would select.
You're also probably correct that the style of play is also a factor. Maybe it's more of a thing as a Wasps fan given we've had a few years of playing some scintillating attacking rugby (and some dire, boring stuff)

He's certainly Marmite.  I think a lot of the crap he spouts is deliberate, it's a page out of the Mourihno playbook - take the pressure off of the team by putting it onto him.  Whether it has an impact on the teams mental state only really the team or Eddie know.  Genge was on thThe Good, The Bad and The Rugby and spoke openly about Eddie, the Squad and the playing style. 

When you hear him speak outside of the gameweek interviews he's an incredibly sharp, funny, articulate and engaging person. 

I went to the Sunday Times Q&A with him just after the world cup and prior to his book launch and have heard him on a few of the Poedcast interviews he's done and each time I found it hard to disagree with what he's saying.  We really do get two Eddie's.

At the moment, the dial seems to be set at win-at-all-costs and I think we'd just all like it dialled back a touch to give some balance that allows one or two players to be given a bit more gametime and to see the team try and play with a bit more ball-in-hand and attacking ambition.

[InBetweenWasp]

Persona is important though. As an Englishman in Wales I had years of bull about English arrogance thrown at me, all untrue- until now- Eddie's public team talks are for everyone else apart from England. Every time he settles down and you think he has perhaps learnt his lesson, he pipes up. 
 

Haskell spoke about this in his book.  He references Lancaster, whereby all press conferences or appearances by players they had to speak about culture, respect etc... the players were never allowed to go out there and say "We've been playing well.  The opposition are quality but have looked a bit shaky so we're looking to take full advantage of that and go out there and smash them!" and so often mentally had given the opposition too much ground before they'd even set foot on the pitch.

Eddie talks about openly about wanting to beat teams, sometimes it's running the opposition off of their feet, sometimes it's steam-rollering them.  But he does it to help the players mindset and give them the confidence to openly talk about winning.  Woodward was similar. 

You'll always have the odd game where it comes back to bite him.  Wales are a classic team that seems to be put all their energy into beating England in the 6N and play on emotion a lot. 

[Shugs]

My perception on this is not that Jones is doing a good job because most agree with a high % of his squad. Rather that they are the obvious picks. It's telling that not many agree with his 9, 10, 12 axis. Those positions dictate the style of play. As fans we are guilty of wanting everything from our teams. Dominant forwards, backs with flair and an opportunity to see both of those aspects in play. For a Premiership side that is a difficult combination to achieve. But for a national side with the resources of England we should be seeing both sides. Jones has created a side that wins a lot of the time but is dire to watch. I think he could easily have the same results and provide entertainment.

[mike909]

My perception on this is not that Jones is doing a good job because most agree with a high % of his squad. Rather that they are the obvious picks. It's telling that not many agree with his 9, 10, 12 axis. Those positions dictate the style of play.

This

The team vs France was the obvious first team from the greater squad selected. That I would want to change 8,9, 10 and 12 and move Watson to 15 and bring in another winger is more - as you say - to do with style of play. AND, as shown this w/e, a starting XV that needs to get on top fairly quickly, or else seems to only have one way of playing, a way that wasn't really too challenging.......

I'd want a mobile/fast 8, Robson, Smith, and a regular 12 to allow a range of approaches. None of the rest of my selection would vary much from everyone else's

[Marlow Nick]

Probably not a wise rugby decision but the first thing I would do is drop Farrell. I know highly qualified rugby experts have him as one of the first picks for England/Lions and he seems to suit Eddy's chosen style but since I want to change tactics away from 10 man kick-chase then I don't think he fits a more expansive & creative approach

a) I don't think he's a creative 12 and I don't think he's a crash-ball 12 all he seems to do is either shovel it out or kick it which is exactly what Eddy wants and exactly what I don't. 
b) I think his tackle technique is positively dangerous both for players he tackles and for England if he gets carded
c) the only reason to have him in the team is his kicking and although he's normally very good the difference between his kicking and and the of others such as Ford/Smith doesnt seem enough to justify his place
d) even if he's in the team I certainly don't want him as captain

All very emotional and proves how little I understand rugby but I just don't want him in my team