Knock on

[Brandnewtorugby]

Smales said something like "It was off his knee" when asked if the ball had been knocked on when fumbled by London Irish at the weekend. I don't claim to be an expert, but I am pretty sure the knee cannot be used to 'kick'?

[mike909]

Smales said something like "It was off his knee" when asked if the ball had been knocked on when fumbled by London Irish at the weekend. I don't claim to be an expert, but I am pretty sure the knee cannot be used to 'kick'?

It's not clear in the Laws as published or on WR's Law clarifications. The wording assumes that a "knock on" goes forwards and hits ground or opposition player. It doesn't mention the player in possession

FWIW, I think this was a knock on in the what was intended within the Laws. BUT if I was to be pedantic.... no attempted kick could be made and especially a drop goal which goes forwards and hits the ground....before being kicked - or an attempt to kick is made.

The problem I have seen articulated elsewhere is that in this example there was no "deliberate" attempt to kick....but then you end up trying to define "deliberate".....Nigel Owens thought it a knock on.....I tend to agree, but a clarification from WR ought not be beyond them.

[ricohchezwasp]

The more I watch Rugby nowadays the more I want to stop watching Rugby, French referee was a joke and as for Smales .....

[wasps]

I'm under the impression that it is a knock on off the knee.

I believe there was a law change some time after Carlos Spencer used to dink over the top off his knee, to make it illegal - presumably a scrum offence, rather than a penalty one


Although it's one of those that's so vague and so rare that there's precedent both ways

[Chunky24]

https://rugby365.com/laws-referees/law-discussions/law-application-knock-on/

It's not a knock on off the knee or any other part of the body apart from hand or arm, good explanation in article above.

The main law clarified a while back now around the knee was that you can't take a quick penalty by tapping it on your knee which was a thing to do for a while.

[Heathen]

Josh had the ball go forward off of his chest in one of our recent matches (Bath?). TMO and ref reviewed - did not go forward off of his hand, therefore try awarded.

[Shugs]

The more I watch Rugby nowadays the more I want to stop watching Rugby, French referee was a joke and as for Smales .....

I watched the De Jongh turnover five times to see what was wrong with it. Conclusion - nothing. And certainly less wrong than Cowan's flop over the top at the end.

[Rossm]

The more I watch Rugby nowadays the more I want to stop watching Rugby, French referee was a joke and as for Smales .....

I watched the De Jongh turnover five times to see what was wrong with it. Conclusion - nothing. And certainly less wrong than Cowan's flop over the top at the end.

I thought it was practically textbook. Couldn't believe it when he got penalised. Posters state that it wasn't the refs fault that we got beat but decisions like this were a huge setback when we were trying very hard to get back in the game.

[Brandnewtorugby]

Josh had the ball go forward off of his chest in one of our recent matches (Bath?). TMO and ref reviewed - did not go forward off of his hand, therefore try awarded.

Ah, so perhaps the London Irish player didn't touch with the hand or arm first. In my minds eye he fumbled first, but could be I miss-remembered it.

[NellyWellyWaspy]

The more I watch Rugby nowadays the more I want to stop watching Rugby, French referee was a joke and as for Smales .....

I watched the De Jongh turnover five times to see what was wrong with it. Conclusion - nothing. And certainly less wrong than Cowan's flop over the top at the end.

I seem to recall his right hand hitting the ground first, then on to the ball.

[ricohchezwasp]

My issue is that week in week out their are so many poor decisions not just for Wasps that it becomes a lottery, we were definitely not good enough, probably not deserving to lose but time and time again the decisions were poor the referee was way too inexperienced, kept screwing up the countless scrums , line out were never straight. Gaske;l was penalised for grabbing the arm on a throw in that was so left of the Irish it was a joke.  the commentators mentioned the two wheeled scrums either side of half time and gave both decision to Irish.

I haven't renewed my season ticket and frankly very unlikely to go to another live game....... I have fallen out with the love for the game and really have better ways to spend my time and money.....

[Brandnewtorugby]

The more I watch Rugby nowadays the more I want to stop watching Rugby, French referee was a joke and as for Smales .....

I watched the De Jongh turnover five times to see what was wrong with it. Conclusion - nothing. And certainly less wrong than Cowan's flop over the top at the end.

I seem to recall his right hand hitting the ground first, then on to the ball.

Yes, I saw that and suspect that's why he was pinged. I have heard lot of decisions for jackle penalties where hand hitting the floor first is given as the reason, which makes sense if the context is that the player is reaching too far forward and would have fallen forwards if they hadn't touched the ground. Assume touching the ground first in any context is now an interpretation of off feet? He just seems to have hit the floor as he scooped the ball up, he was practically on top of it. A victim of the new interpretations, which in fairness as a whole across the different refs do seem to be starting to make rucks a bit cleaner. Happy to see the dive into the ruck getting pinged now, at least sometimes.

[Nigel Med]

My understanding is that there is no problem touching the ground, it's all about whether you are supporting your bodyweight with your legs. I believe that refs have been told to look at leg positions, if your centre of gravity is beyond your feet (i.e. you'd normally fall over) then you must be supporting part of your weight with your arms therefore you've gone off your feet. If your knees are bent (think a classic Jack Willis Jackal position), you're supporting your own weight with your legs so it's not a problem if you touch the ground.

They're also looking for a definite attempt to lift the ball not just hands on it and it would be almost impossible to do that without touching the grass.

[Rossm]

Well I still don't know why JdJ got pinged