Wasps v Toulouse: Post Match Thoughts.

[Wombles]

Immense

Wasps are back

Alfie, Biyi AND THEM ALL, take a bow!

That was fantastic! Grit, physicality, determination and taking chances when they came. Some may miss the 4 try BP, however when we have had to manage all the challenges this season has thrown at us, come up against a star studded Toulouse and have to play 50 minutes with 14 men this is a result to cherish. We struggled in the scrum and maul on many occasions, yet equally we held the scrum or won the lineout at crucial times. It was a game of moments, winning turnovers, kicking penalties, forcing knock on's, slowing Toulouse at the ruck. All added up to a win...and what a important one for the growth of our team.

Let me discuss the Jacob red card. First things first, Jacob needs to work exceptionally hard on his tackling, he is forcing referees to make decisions due to how he sets and enters the tackle. The referee I will say actually had a overall good game. As Brad said in game to sir, it is a hard job they do. He is a young ref new to this level and he will learn. Overall I was impressed with how he let the game flow and how he communicated with both sides. Yet if the RFU disciplinary process follows the rules today Jacobs red will be reduced to a yellow. The reason is not about mitigation as heavily mentioned here and also with the pundits. It was the step before when deciding if it was a high degree of danger. IF high degree then it starts at red and then mitigation is applied to see if it can be reduced. But here is the rub. By the rules a high degree of danger needs to fulfil the following;

Signs indicating higher degree of danger:

Preparation
- Tackler draws the arm back prior to contact
- Tackler may leave the ground
- Arm swings forward prior to contact.

Contact
- Tackler is attempting an active/dominant tackle, as opposed to a passive/soak, or "pulling out" of contact.
- Tackler speed and/or acceleration into tackle is high rigid arm or elbow makes contact with ball carrier head as part of swinging motion.

Follow through
- Tackler completes the tackle (as opposed to immediate release/withdrawl).

As you can see above Jacob does not meet any of the above criteria for a high degree of danger, thus the pathway to follow was always to yellow card, and mitigation rules when following a high degree of danger never needed applying. Once the referees incorrectly followed the route, in my humble opinion there was never enough mitigation to take it down from a red. Thus you can see the decision was wrong and if processes are applied at the hearing it should be taken down to yellow. Any other option is to ignore their own guidance.


But lets not step away from the joy today. I just have this feeling we may finally be turning a corner!

Chris

Once a Wasp ALWAYS a Wasp.

Rugby by birth, Wasps by the grace of God.
 

[backdoc]

The problem with box-ticking, is that people will always criticise the outcome if it disagrees with their gut-feel.

[Rossm]

I've already expressed my feelings about Jacob's card, so I won't go on about it.

Remember, with our monumental injury list, we beat the unbeaten league leaders last Sunday and now, 6 days later and down to 14 for more than a half, we have comprehensibly beaten the European champions. Forget about their final try, they still got nothing from the game, in fact, as the clock was in the red, we should just have waved them through, let them score and not risked an injury.

I am so proud of our spirit, determination and, in Heathen's word, dog.

If I'm going to mention one player for special praise, it's Rodrigo Martinez, who (I think) went the full 80 on what must have been pretty much his debut.

[Steve from Cov]

Another unexpected but excellent result.

Huge effort as our confidence grew. Well done everyone. Great afternoon out.

[JonnyD]

I've already expressed my feelings about Jacob's card, so I won't go on about it.

Remember, with our monumental injury list, we beat the unbeaten league leaders last Sunday and now, 6 days later and down to 14 for more than a half, we have comprehensibly beaten the European champions. Forget about their final try, they still got nothing from the game, in fact, as the clock was in the red, we should just have waved them through, let them score and not risked an injury.

I am so proud of our spirit, determination and, in Heathen's word, dog.

If I'm going to mention one player for special praise, it's Rodrigo Martinez, who (I think) went the full 80 on what must have been pretty much his debut.

Think he did about 76 mins as Zac was definitely on to concede a penalty at the end, just missing out on the jackal. Great shift, from him, especially if he was injured last week.
Alo also very good, and will do Scholtz some confidence too being back in the mix and putting himself about.
Enjoyed the ref’s interpretation at scrum time and didn’t seem to come in with any predetermined views as we discussed last week.
Thought the ref had a good game.

Charlie gets a good crack at a stint in the 10 shirt now

[mike909]

Thanks for the explanation Chris. It's similar to how I see many of the reffing "pathways" on the breakdown....in that if it's a ruck....then there is nothing to judge IRO contest....

Regardless, I wasn't expecting that. Great to see the key players putting their collective hands up and demonstrated a real Wasps performance from the vaults. No one is going to fancy playing us - especially when we have more of the injured back and functioning. Real dog in the defence and team spirit for the whole of the game. It was like they expected to win and that early try probably confirmed their view. Only for Wasps to score twice and get in their collective faces.

I can happily enjoy a small glass later on, knowing that was a job well done....Lol and Haskell would have loved to have played in that game which is how high a level of performance that was......

[Bloke in North Dorset]

I couldn't get excited about toady's game, by the 2nd half I couldn't sit down and was wearing down the wooden floor behind my chair ​as I paced up and down.

A great effort all round, I don't think anyone had a poor game or shirked responsibility. What was really pleasing is how those who've been out for the long term were just as committed as those who have been in the trenches for weeks. Its not easy mentally coming back from a long term injury and going straight in to a high pressure game, like that  not  leastt because of the subconscious fear of another injury.

As someone said in another thread, Odogwu is a bums on seat, bums off seat player and he didn't disappoint. Charlie is really growing in stature and its hard to see Jacob earning that shirt back. Biyi around the park has been a revelation these past 2 weeks and epitomised the spirit.

It looks like the injury problems are going to continue, though, with Cruse looking doubtful and Tom Willis having to go through return to play protocols. For that reason I wasn't too bothered about them going for the TBP and trying to get through in to the next stage, we'll draw a Top 4 team and it will be a couple of difficult games. We might be better off playing in the Challenge Cup and blooding a few of the academy players and resting the senior players. YMMV.

On Jacob, I think the decisions summed up the way our season has gone. On another day Jacob gets a yellow and Jelonch  a red. My real concern about Jacob's tackle technique is that he's a serious danger to himself. There's no doubt he's brave, but that makes it even more likely he'll get himself seriously injured.

All in all, a very satisfying 2 weeks and thanks to them all for making it so.

[Rossm]

Thanks Jonny. I didn't realise that Zac had come on.

[Westy68]

I've already expressed my feelings about Jacob's card, so I won't go on about it.

Remember, with our monumental injury list, we beat the unbeaten league leaders last Sunday and now, 6 days later and down to 14 for more than a half, we have comprehensibly beaten the European champions. Forget about their final try, they still got nothing from the game, in fact, as the clock was in the red, we should just have waved them through, let them score and not risked an injury.

I am so proud of our spirit, determination and, in Heathen's word, dog.

If I'm going to mention one player for special praise, it's Rodrigo Martinez, who (I think) went the full 80 on what must have been pretty much his debut.

Well said Rossm but I would also like to add the massive improvement of Biyi Alo. Wow he was good today, just didn’t stop tackling

[Chunky24]

I've already expressed my feelings about Jacob's card, so I won't go on about it.

Remember, with our monumental injury list, we beat the unbeaten league leaders last Sunday and now, 6 days later and down to 14 for more than a half, we have comprehensibly beaten the European champions. Forget about their final try, they still got nothing from the game, in fact, as the clock was in the red, we should just have waved them through, let them score and not risked an injury.

I am so proud of our spirit, determination and, in Heathen's word, dog.

If I'm going to mention one player for special praise, it's Rodrigo Martinez, who (I think) went the full 80 on what must have been pretty much his debut.

Well said Rossm but I would also like to add the massive improvement of Biyi Alo. Wow he was good today, just didn’t stop tackling

Agree with starting props superb, Scholtz also solid when he came on and made some decent tackles around too, did feel for him and Nizaam still having to do the after match extras fitness despite having played a reasonable part in the game while the players went on their lap to the supporters.
 

[Peej]

Immense

Wasps are back

Alfie, Biyi AND THEM ALL, take a bow!

That was fantastic! Grit, physicality, determination and taking chances when they came. Some may miss the 4 try BP, however when we have had to manage all the challenges this season has thrown at us, come up against a star studded Toulouse and have to play 50 minutes with 14 men this is a result to cherish. We struggled in the scrum and maul on many occasions, yet equally we held the scrum or won the lineout at crucial times. It was a game of moments, winning turnovers, kicking penalties, forcing knock on's, slowing Toulouse at the ruck. All added up to a win...and what a important one for the growth of our team.

Let me discuss the Jacob red card. First things first, Jacob needs to work exceptionally hard on his tackling, he is forcing referees to make decisions due to how he sets and enters the tackle. The referee I will say actually had a overall good game. As Brad said in game to sir, it is a hard job they do. He is a young ref new to this level and he will learn. Overall I was impressed with how he let the game flow and how he communicated with both sides. Yet if the RFU disciplinary process follows the rules today Jacobs red will be reduced to a yellow. The reason is not about mitigation as heavily mentioned here and also with the pundits. It was the step before when deciding if it was a high degree of danger. IF high degree then it starts at red and then mitigation is applied to see if it can be reduced. But here is the rub. By the rules a high degree of danger needs to fulfil the following;

Signs indicating higher degree of danger:

Preparation
- Tackler draws the arm back prior to contact
- Tackler may leave the ground
- Arm swings forward prior to contact.

Contact
- Tackler is attempting an active/dominant tackle, as opposed to a passive/soak, or "pulling out" of contact.
- Tackler speed and/or acceleration into tackle is high rigid arm or elbow makes contact with ball carrier head as part of swinging motion.

Follow through
- Tackler completes the tackle (as opposed to immediate release/withdrawl).

As you can see above Jacob does not meet any of the above criteria for a high degree of danger, thus the pathway to follow was always to yellow card, and mitigation rules when following a high degree of danger never needed applying. Once the referees incorrectly followed the route, in my humble opinion there was never enough mitigation to take it down from a red. Thus you can see the decision was wrong and if processes are applied at the hearing it should be taken down to yellow. Any other option is to ignore their own guidance.


But lets not step away from the joy today. I just have this feeling we may finally be turning a corner!

Chris

Once a Wasp ALWAYS a Wasp.

Rugby by birth, Wasps by the grace of God.

He's attempting both a dominant tackle, he's led with a shoulder as his head is on the wrong side, and he has followed through. It was a red all day

[Wombles]

Peej. The tackle is shocking, but I would suggest his tackle his not dominant but far more passive. Bio mechanically, his feet are planted, the weight is towards to heels and any movement is upright rather than driving forwards. His shoulder is nowhere near the head or neck thus has no relevance in this situation. There is no follow through either as the impact means no holding to complete the tackle.

https://www.world.rugby/the-game/laws/guidelines/21

The above link gives example videos. I think example 5 in this is comparable.

Also some good reading and framework here;

https://rugbyandthelaw.com/2019/07/06/world-rugby-high-tackle-framework-red-card-player-welfare-referee-disciplinary/

[Chunky24]

Some highlights here already

https://twitter.com/ChampionsCup/status/1482380636677492736?t=bgQq8jhkRDwDhOfVnmxvlQ&s=19

[Beasties]

I've already expressed my feelings about Jacob's card, so I won't go on about it.

Remember, with our monumental injury list, we beat the unbeaten league leaders last Sunday and now, 6 days later and down to 14 for more than a half, we have comprehensibly beaten the European champions. Forget about their final try, they still got nothing from the game, in fact, as the clock was in the red, we should just have waved them through, let them score and not risked an injury.

I am so proud of our spirit, determination and, in Heathen's word, dog.

If I'm going to mention one player for special praise, it's Rodrigo Martinez, who (I think) went the full 80 on what must have been pretty much his debut.

Well said Rossm but I would also like to add the massive improvement of Biyi Alo. Wow he was good today, just didn’t stop tackling

Agree with starting props superb, Scholtz also solid when he came on and made some decent tackles around too, did feel for him and Nizaam still having to do the after match extras fitness despite having played a reasonable part in the game while the players went on their lap to the supporters.

I’ll just add to all of this. Martinez was immense as was Alo. The improvement in Alo is quite something to behold, and I wasn’t a fan when he arrived. What a shift from the pair of them. Even Scholz caught the bug, he threw himself around impressively even if it was for just 15 mins, and his scrummaging was strong. On that showing it may be worth holding onto him.

But as for the rest of the team; abso bloody lutely bravo guys. What a fighting spirit. I’m struggling to process what i’ve just watched. Tremendous. Willis fought almost a lone battle early on but sadly had to go off, but everyone upped their game from the moment Umaga went off. Toulouse appeared capable of easily beating us but just couldn’t seem to find the switch. DuPont makes that a different game, phew. Astonishing guys and thank you.

[Rossm]

I think we'll lose Alfie to England