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Author Topic: RFU support EJ’s continuance  (Read 2834 times)

Trevs Big Tackle

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Re: RFU support EJ’s continuance
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2022, 09:57:04 AM »
5th last year. 3rd this year. Progress I suppose. Not really solid progress though.

I do sometimes wonder if the RFU old farts actually watch any rugby.

Progress my arse. England have the same win/loss ratio as last year and have scored fewer tries.

Well, indeed. But, just looking at the tables, if England continue progressing at this rate then next year we'll win it!

Brian Moore has written a piece for the Telegraph that seems to suggest England don't have decent players (judging the article by the headline as it's behind a paywall). Can anyone who has access post that up, please?

RogerE

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Re: RFU support EJ’s continuance
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2022, 10:16:41 AM »

Brian Moore
21 March 2022 • 7:00am


There was little doubt in most people’s minds that France would beat England on Saturday. As it turned out, everybody got it right. England never really came close to upsetting the tournament’s form team.

It was surprising England stayed in touch in the first half and briefly looked like they might turn the momentum. The truth was that had France not been profligate, they could have scored another three tries in the first 40 minutes.

It was only a matter of time before they corrected their wastefulness and the talismanic Antoine Dupont put his mark in the history books. He scurried through a gap near the breakdown and, with that, France were home and free.

This is no more than they deserve. Their steady and methodical progress under Fabien Galthie and Raphael Ibanez has been a revelation. Add the blunt discipline instilled by Shaun Edwards and you have a potent brew. This process started with the brilliance of several under-20 teams and the systematic exploitation of that talent.

Yet how is it that a country as large and economically powerful as France has had to wait for over a decade to claim this prize?

Every major international team have a “golden generation” where a critical mass of talent is born and, if their system spots, selects and develops it, they have a serious chance of carrying off rugby’s major prize. You have a better chance of this happening if you are a country with more players, but that alone does not guarantee success.

In this cycle, England just do not have the same talent as other teams do. When you look at the current crop of available England players, can you honestly say you can select a different starting squad of sufficiently talented, experienced, in-form and fit players who would be the equal of the French and potential world-beaters?

Leaving aside Eddie Jones’s bewildering selection of players out of their usual positions; accounting for unavailability through injury or stupidity; ignoring a club v country conundrum – can you?

No, you cannot.

Jones is one of the most successful England coaches in history. I believe that in the last World Cup England’s stars aligned, as far as they ever do, and they fell at the last fence.

I cannot see where a winning squad could have come from and apportioning blame is difficult. You can look at the academy system, which leaves a raft of players not playing more than a handful of games per season. You can ask whether Premiership clubs rely too heavily on imported talent. But the raw material is just not there.

Where Jones the coach is responsible is that he has not made the necessary tough calls. No country have won a World Cup with fewer than around 700 caps in their starting XV. Whatever team Jones picks he cannot fulfil that basic requirement. It was his job to choose between highly-capped players and nascent talent and now, with just 14 games until the World Cup, it is clear he has erred.

However glittering his pomp, Ben Youngs does not now provide the tempo supplied by Harry Randall. The same can be said of other players – and this is damning. Whatever players have not been available, it cannot excuse the failure to identify preferred units and stick with preferred players, allowing them at least familiarity.

Jones’s avowed claim that he wants players who can play without regard to the number on their back is ill-conceived. You want players to be able to do what is required and when, but that is different from choosing players in any old position and thinking they can perform as if they were in settled units. You cannot point to any historically successful side where it has been so. England will go into 2023 with limited hope.

NellyWellyWaspy

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Re: RFU support EJ’s continuance
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2022, 10:19:49 AM »
Let's not forget the RFU cannot afford to change anything - they haven't got the money to pay off Mad Eddie's contract, and they know he won't change the way he operates.

Therefore there is no way any report would do anything but keep the status quo.

What they are doing is supporting the decision they made to extend EJ's contract, with no break clause. A decision, which, at the time, was met with derision and predictions of dire performances, selection troubles, etc.

The chickens are most certainly home and roosting.

In much the same way as the profligate waste of money on HQ building works and jollies abroad for the boys, at the expense of support for the Championship and grass roots, and the decision to turn down a decent TV deal with BT in hopes of an even better deal.

Neils

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Re: RFU support EJ’s continuance
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2022, 10:26:12 AM »
The TV deal was PRL buggering it up
Let me tell you something cucumber

wasps

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Re: RFU support EJ’s continuance
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2022, 10:52:15 AM »

What's the betting that next year Eddie conforms to normal thinking.

He picks a back row filled with back row players playing in their usual positions.
He picks a fly half with quick distribution, and puts pace on the wings.

Suddenly, there's an upturn in England's fortunes and he says it's because players have rounded their skillsets by becoming familiar with other positions

mike909

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Re: RFU support EJ’s continuance
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2022, 11:10:02 AM »
https://www.theroar.com.au/2022/03/21/french-unsung-heroes-eddies-spin-cycle-wayne-pivac-on-the-brink-6n-talking-points/

The points IRO England and Jones seem fair, especially this:
Quote
There are many who look back at Jones’ record of taking the England side from the terrible situation of getting knocked out of the 2015 World Cup in the group stages to a Final in 2019, and use that as proof that the experienced coach knows what he is doing.

But there’s an interesting point that’s worth noting – Jones inherited a group of players from the previous coach, Stuart Lancaster, that he then helped improve. But the squad was there, ready to go. Jones added a couple of players for sure but the majority of the squad were there ready, willing and able.

As Jones’ England tenure has gone on and it’s come down to him to bring in more and more new players and develop his own England squad, England’s performances have started to go downhill.

Andywasp50

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Re: RFU support EJ’s continuance
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2022, 11:11:12 AM »
I disagree with Brian Moore. He makes some valid points but Wales are no better placed - in fact I would say are worse off - with depth of playing talent. Admittedly they had a bad one this year, but they've recently managed to win Grand slams and Six Nations titles more regularly than England because of their coaching set up and vision. They were also a whisker away from the WC final before being pipped by a South African side that routed England.

I would wager England would be in a much, much stronger position if Gatland and Edwards had been offered the job after the last world cup. There would be a definitive style and vision and with players playing to their strengths in the right positions, and the likes of Robson given a decent run. Suddenly we'd find we had a rich source of players who could all step in and do a job.

Players here have been messed around by Jones's weird and wonderful tinkering. I can't see how he can command loyalty or respect from players or coaches - the coaching turnover is madness and how can players like Marchant and Launchbury really respect him when he's singing their praises one minute and discarding them the next?
« Last Edit: March 21, 2022, 11:14:00 AM by Andywasp50 »

InBetweenWasp

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Re: RFU support EJ’s continuance
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2022, 11:42:56 AM »
Yeah, i'm not convinced by Moore's argument.  I actually think that once people start getting pick in their actual positions.  We've got a competitive squad.  Weak points are depth/experience at 9 and then it's our 12/13 combinations and that is largely down to Eddie for not having given any other 9s proper game time.  The perennial problem of our centre pairing as well should have been a critical problem that Eddie sought to solve.

I can see why Farrell/Manu combo was a distraction, but there's no Plan B (Seems to be Slade/Marchant which could develop but both are very similar 13s and as classy a player as Slade is it doesn't feel like 12 could or should be his long-term position).

I think had he of solved those two issues sooner, we'd be in a much stronger place.  But it's easy to say that with hindsight.

Vespula Vulgaris

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Re: RFU support EJ’s continuance
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2022, 11:54:55 AM »
It feels strange to me to suggest that the problem is a lack of experience in the players and not EJ, when EJ is the very reason we don't have younger players with more experience.

There have been ample opportunities to get younger, newer players on the team but he stuck with the same old few.

I for one am embarrassed to support a team where Ben Youngs is the most capped player ever. That more than anything else sums up our utter lack of ambition.
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hopwood

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Re: RFU support EJ’s continuance
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2022, 12:13:10 PM »
Why is is that the RFU never assign a name to any of their communications?

It just reflects the complete lack of accountability that seems to flow from top to bottom.

I can guarantee you that Bill Sweeney would have had his name in print (all over the press) if we had won the Six Nations.

welsh wasp

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Re: RFU support EJ’s continuance
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2022, 12:40:34 PM »
SOLID yes but very little PROGRESS. Monte summed it up very well but may not be welcome at Twickenham
The RFU seem, rather like their cricket equivalent, to be good at making wrong decisions. No point suggesting Gotland as someone suggested in this thread. The RFU turned him down before he came to Wales.
A word about Genge. He must be covered by even more bruises than usual after being posted in back field to take the ball after a French kick and rumble forward. Did that make any discernible difference to anyone?

hopwood

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Re: RFU support EJ’s continuance
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2022, 12:44:20 PM »
From The Times

Six Nations: Silent Bill Sweeney still wedded to Project Eddie Jones with England
March 20 2022,

The RFU chief executive did not hold back in his criticism of England’s disappointing Six Nations campaign, making it clear that the highly funded, highly remunerated national team had fallen short of expectations once again. His analysis was blunt and left no one in any doubt what Twickenham executives expected of the England coach. “It is not acceptable. We should be, as a country, winning more in terms of grand slams, Six Nations championships, other things,” he said.

The RFU’s “brutally honest” review 12 months ago concluded that a campaign in which the highly funded, highly remunerated national team won only two games was “sub-optimal”. Which corporate lingo did they use to spin away another failed campaign, another losing record of two from five, to disillusioned supporters?

Before any formal process, before gathering 360-degree feedback, deep diving, cross-pollinating or reaching out to anonymous advisers from outside of rugby, the RFU concluded that England had made “solid progress” and taken “strong positive steps”. It was like a lost script from W1A, a parody on corporate spin.

On Sunday morning, Jones called for disillusioned supporters to keep the faith, arguing this experience was a necessary part of rebuilding the team. He vowed it would all be right on the night, some 18 months hence when the World Cup final is played back here in Paris.

Within seven hours the RFU was on board, issuing a statement of jarring positivity that effectively endorsed the notion that a World Cup was all that mattered. “Eddie Jones is building a new England team and against a clear strategy and we are encouraged by the solid progress the team has made during this Six Nations campaign,” a spokesperson said. “The RFU continues to fully support Eddie.”

The bar of what is now deemed “acceptable” to the RFU has not only been lowered since Jones took charge but the whole word redefined. There is no question that Lancaster, given the standards to which he was held, would have been sacked had he delivered two wins from five in successive championships.

Those standards do still apply in some corners of the RFU. Tom Ilube, the chairman, said after his appointment that England’s “rightful place” was to “consistently be ranked one and two in the world”. They are fifth at present.

However, it is widely believed that Bill Sweeney, the chief executive, was never minded to make a change, partly because he was so wedded to the Jones project and partly because the pool of potential replacements was so shallow that the RFU was reluctant to risk the cost and upheaval.

We do not know Sweeney’s thoughts for sure, however, as he has not spoken publicly on anything to do with the RFU, England or English rugby for eight months. Most of the advisory panel that will conduct the performance review over the next fortnight are not even prepared to be named, although Jones is on it along with Sweeney and Conor O’Shea, the director of performance.

How much accountability is there? How many tough questions will be asked of Jones, who wrote in his most recent book, Leadership, that he had learnt the value of managing upward? “I really do understand now that it works to everyone’s benefit if I keep Bill Sweeney, the CEO of the RFU, informed about our strategy and how we operate and manage it,” Jones wrote.

The publication of that book, in which Jones criticised Maro Itoje and other England players, is one example of how long a lead Jones is given by the RFU.

During his time in the job, it is believed that he struck independent sponsorship deals that Twickenham executives knew nothing about and that he initially worked as a paid consultant elsewhere without the knowledge of the RFU. Every time something comes to light, the RFU falls into line in defence of its man.

The public version of last year’s Six Nations review apportioned no blame to Jones or the management team, even though Simon Amor was dismissed as attack coach shortly afterwards. Instead, it singled out issues such as Covid restrictions (which applied to every team), the poor form of Saracens players (who were picked anyway) and deficiencies with decision-making and breakdown technique in the Gallagher Premiership.

Jones has always felt the club- country system in England holds back the national team and he has become much more vocal on that subject of late, both in the build-up to the defeat by Ireland (who were the most “cohesive team in the world” with 11 Leinster players) and in the aftermath of the loss in Paris.

“It is harder to coach in the Six Nations than it is in the World Cup, particularly for England. We are like a transit room,” Jones said. “We have players coming in and out. We have players in for two days and then they leave so it is a difficult balancing act to get the cohesion of the team right.”

France have been held back for years by their internal politics but Bernard Laporte, the FFR president, created a club-country synergy with all parties cognisant of the wider benefits of a winning national team before the 2023 World Cup.

The success of France’s age-group teams, the focus on encouraging the selection of home-grown players for Top 14 clubs and the strength of their second division have been key factors in the rise of Les Bleus, who won the slam after two second-place finishes.

The RFU has work to do in this regard. “I’m not certain our system continuously generates those absolutely world-class players,” Ilube said in September. “Year after year after year we should be there [in the world’s top two] and to do that we need that cohort of absolutely world-class players so something about the system needs to generate them.”

As part of last year’s Six Nations review, the RFU said it would engage a panel of “external rugby experts” to “inform all future debriefs to provide additional insight and support for the head coach”. However, not one member of this panel was prepared to put their name to being involved either. Window dressing.

The review also established an annual pre-season seminar in a bid to forge closer alignment between club and country, addressing a number of issues including breakdown indiscipline and the importance of ruck speed. Jones gave a presentation on it to the Premiership directors of rugby.

Sweeney was never minded to make a change, partly because he is wedded to Jones and partly because the pool of potential replacements is so shallow that the RFU was reluctant to risk the cost and upheaval

On Saturday night, England conceded four breakdown turnovers in the first half and such was France’s dominance on the floor that 40 per cent of their rucks were under two seconds, according to the statistician Ross Hamilton.

As he reviewed both the France game and the tournament as a whole, Jones said England’s attack had been “very good” but they just needed to learn how to finish. That’s like saying Michel Roux Jr was very good at buying the ingredients, he just needed to learn how to cook.

England scored three tries in their games against Scotland, Wales, Ireland and France, only two of which they created themselves. Jones said he had “never been more excited about the development of a team” and the situation is a bit different from last year, given the new players making their mark.

In Ellis Genge, Freddie Steward and Joe Marchant they had men who took big strides forward this campaign. They have world-class players already in Itoje and Tom Curry, plus promising talents in Marcus Smith, Harry Randall, Raffi Quirke and Alex Dombrandt.

Jones insisted he would forge from that group a World Cup-winning team during their three-month camp in the summer. The RFU is convinced by rhetoric and his record of guiding England from a Six Nations fifth place in 2018 to the 2019 World Cup final plus two titles (2017, 2020) and a grand slam (2016).

But that was six years ago. The RFU should be concerned that England fans have lost patience with the endless promises of jam tomorrow, given the team’s recent Six Nations record, excluding Italy, is eight wins from 20 Tests and two away victories from 11.

However you dress that up, it is suboptimal — or unacceptable, in the true meaning of the word.

mike909

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Re: RFU support EJ’s continuance
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2022, 01:45:47 PM »
Quote
As he reviewed both the France game and the tournament as a whole, Jones said England’s attack had been “very good” but they just needed to learn how to finish. That’s like saying Michel Roux Jr was very good at buying the ingredients, he just needed to learn how to cook.

Quite. Anyone thinking that the England attack had been anything but inept and unfocused is deluding themselves. And it seems that Jones is doing exactly that.

Dropping/excluding the players that provided the breaks and gain line positives and denuding the backline of pace unsurprisingly provides for little positive in attack......

Rossm

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Re: RFU support EJ’s continuance
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2022, 01:48:12 PM »
A word about Genge. He must be covered by even more bruises than usual after being posted in back field to take the ball after a French kick and rumble forward. Did that make any discernible difference to anyone?

Well I guess it shows that Jones does not trust his back row, particularly Simmonds at 8, to catch and truck it up and therefore has designated Ellis as the KO receiver. Alfie anyone?
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DGP Wasp

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Re: RFU support EJ’s continuance
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2022, 02:16:29 PM »
Dawson's view:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/60812820

Daws seems to hit the nail on the head almost accidentally:

"Certain players in that squad have to at some stage realise that this is their chance to be part of a World Cup-winning team.
If they do not put their hand up in camp, disagreeing with things to push change, then they will lose their opportunity to win the World Cup.
They cannot drift through the year if they disagree with the coaches. They need to say, 'this is not how we should be playing' and challenge the coaches in a way that will empower them to do it on the pitch.
At the moment you feel they are going along with things and admittedly in the past we have seen players who have questioned the coaches get exiled."

He starts by saying that if players don't speak up then they will they will lose their opportunity to win the World Cup (due to England not improving), then goes on to admit that if they do speak up they will they will lose their opportunity to win the World Cup (due to not being selected).  So what's the answer Daws?  And there is one of the biggest obstacles facing Eddie's England in a nutshell.  Any coach (or manager in any line of work) who is not prepared to be challenged by his players is going to struggle.  If the RFU won't sack him, then wholesale player mutiny seems to be the only straw left for England fans to clutch at.