Always a Wasp

Author Topic: Expectations  (Read 4929 times)

WonkyWasp

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Re: Expectations
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2022, 06:07:52 PM »
Thank you  very much Backdoc.  Thought for a while that I'd lost some more marbles there.

Jac A

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Re: Expectations
« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2022, 08:26:08 PM »
Just thought I'd say how much I have enjoyed reading people's thoughts and opinions on here. Sometimes in game and post-game threads there can be excess negativity brought on through the emotion of supporting a team but reading this has been interesting and enlightening. Thank you all.

Vespula Vulgaris

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Re: Expectations
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2022, 12:24:20 AM »
I’d rather see a team including West, Oghre, T Willis, J Willis, Barbeary, Atkinson, Umaga, Spink - players we’ve produced ourselves - develop over time than the constant stream of very talented mercenary type signings. I don’t question they provided entertainment and the interest that was necessary at the time but it’s not a sustainable model.

I think this is a false correlation.

We can produce top class forwards through our academy, but we have to buy in top class backs?

There is absolutely no reason that should be the case, unless the same problem is at academy level as well.
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Shugs

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Re: Expectations
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2022, 07:00:38 AM »
I don’t think it is a forwards or backs thing. Umaga, Atkinson and Spink are listed and hopefully the likes of Hartley, Bacon, Simonds, Ma-asi White, Monye etc will join that list soon. It’s about what you want the team to be. The wonderful but fleeting impact of a visiting Beale or Le Roux or what you might term a more pragmatic but sustainable model currently under construction. Each is as valid as the other - it’s just down to what you prefer as a fan.

wasps

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Re: Expectations
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2022, 07:56:17 AM »



There's also the intangible element of what young players learnt from those superstars.


Thomas young definitely improved from playing with George Smith... And it may be that Jack Willis is the player he is because if it too.




Heathen

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Re: Expectations
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2022, 08:21:48 AM »
The big question is - how much further can Lee take the squad?

Wombles

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Re: Expectations
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2022, 09:04:51 AM »
One of our biggest problems this season has been a consistency in performance. Far to often we are in and out of games and it has cost us wins and points. In previous posts we talk about 80 minute performances, but that does not mean consistently dominating our opposition, having multiple visits to their 22 and scoring highly. But what it does mean is being consistent and strong whether in attack or defence. I like to use England 2001-2003 as a great example of this, as no matter what was thrown at them they either kept ahead or in touch, trusting themselves, their game plan and their leadership. It led to consistency in performance and a unity which led them to victory.

I have seen it mentioned that silverware matters less with greater enjoyment taken from individual games/moments in play or memories, and for us fans that can be a primary driver, but for me this thought ends there. To a player -whether amateur like myself or professional like our boys-, club owner, coaches, support staff and everyone associated with a club winning does mean an awful lot. Trophies, titles and medals are tangible rewards for effort, sacrifice and commitment. Of course wages are a motivator, but if silverware was not there or players perceived that there was no way they were going to win anything with us, we would tumble out of sight rapidly. Winning titles is one of the greatest motivators for player and club as it brings financial returns that allow ongoing success. If it were not we would not have the Premiership competition or Heineken cup that we are also desperate to get in and win. We would still be amateur and friendly games with no need to record league positions or win/loss ratios would be the order of the day.

Expectations for this season for me were blunted with the injury count that we had, not only at one stage were 25 players on the physios couch, but they were some of our best performers and leaders. It was also the nature and severity of the injuries with long lay offs requiring extended return to play, and time to get into top level rugby once more that undid our chances of success and tempered expectations in some quarters. I hoped for top 6 this season, but as the first half of the season progressed and we were left parachuting short term signing after short term signing in that became harder to achieve. It is also likely why we could not get to the challenge cup final and also challenge for top 4/6 as injuries prevented consistency in selection and thus development of relationships and understanding, coupled with much needed player rotation to keep standards high and players rested.

It is our coaches though that carry my greatest expectations for the remainder of this season and into next. They must get HC qualification as this has far wider benefits for both players and financially for the club. But next season is the acid test. When you look at our signings and squad next season, on paper it is a top 6 or 4 team in the waiting. There is a blend of experience, youth and leadership that can achieve. But all teams need the guiding hand of the coaches, they need an environment conducive to success. One of which honesty, trust and valuing of each other is paramount. Importantly one which evolves a deep sense of belonging, creating a strong bond with each other and Wasps rugby club in general. Once a Wasp always a Wasp should run in the blood. This gives identity and purpose which motivates to levels of performance and ambition far greater than a team simply there for the pay cheque and occasional great memories.
Lee et al need to be united in this as well, they need clarity of what they want to achieve, not just in results, but in style and performance. Importantly they need to get global buy in from the club and squad. By creating such an environment, you get wider support from the fans, you also provide an ambition for the academy as they have players to look up to, and a club they desperately want to be part of and play for. Long term success for any club is the academy, it is that fertile environment that can provide generation after generation of teams that can be successful, but also go to the well whenever needed to get through tougher periods when they inevitably arrive. Lee and the coaches are one of the core groups to enable and achieve this, and with the academy, current playing squad and facilities available to them now, this is exactly why I stated that next season is a moment that will define them.

One of my greatest expectations though is a personal one. It has been 8 years since our move, and in this time we have welcomed new supporters who may not have joined us had we remained where we were. Purely selfishly of course I would of liked my and my families team to remain close to our home area of London as we are only an hour away in the Surrey Hills. As a lad I can remember Sudbury and us playing in the old courage clubs championship or Pilkington cup. It was hard watching us move, and the reasons why have been talked to death. But now we have our own ground and a home that will still be there long after I am pushing up daisies. As the years pass more and more people both young and old will have their first taste of watching Wasps, just as I did when I first saw us turn out against Saracens many decades ago. The support will grow and the roots we are placing now will flourish. Kids will become adults and introduce their kids to the club and sport we all love and I look forward to seeing that constant growth with great expectation.

Chris

Once a Wasp ALWAYS a Wasp.  ;D
« Last Edit: May 16, 2022, 01:42:04 PM by Wombles »

wasps

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Re: Expectations
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2022, 09:05:17 AM »
The big question is - how much further can Lee take the squad?


Do coaches / head coaches / DORs learn through adversity?


Do they make mistakes at times and then learn what they did wrong previously to make them better in their role?




I know the modern professional game is always about results, but if you sack your coaching team after a poor season, then someone else benefits from everything they learnt.


That's why I want to see what Lee and co. Can do next season.
Can they right some wrongs, have they identified areas of weakness where a couple of injuries will leave us too exposed, have they identified the right game plan etc etc.


If they aren't learning through adversity even with a whole pre-season then I agree that it may be time to look at other options, but I want to give them that chance before coming to that decision



Steve from Cov

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Re: Expectations
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2022, 09:10:21 AM »
I remember when we did attack brilliantly but when we played the big teams they would physically beat us up.

I prefer the foundations we currently have at the moment as long as we can see an improvement at 10, 12, 13 and 15.


Spot on. Some of the comments on this thread are bonkers - selective amnesia.

Jac A

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Re: Expectations
« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2022, 09:58:48 AM »
One of our biggest...


Lovely post Chris. I really enjoyed reading that and agree with much of what you say.

I remember when we did attack brilliantly but when we played the big teams they would physically beat us up.

I prefer the foundations we currently have at the moment as long as we can see an improvement at 10, 12, 13 and 15.


Another agree.

I think with the pack we have - already vastly improved in the lineout, becoming a real scrummaging force and excellent at the breakdown - we will have really solid foundations. I think we will also be looking to be become very strong defensively: I've said elsewhere that I think Odendal and Spink will be such a good defensive centre pairing. I do however think that we will still be scoring more off set-piece, first phase and turnover than from multi-phase play or flowing back moves.


hopwood

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Re: Expectations
« Reply #40 on: May 16, 2022, 10:33:57 AM »
I'd like to see players playing in their proper position.
Whilst obviously Hougaard has experience, playing him on the wing blocks the path of someone like Luke Mehson, who was the type of player Wasps were calling out for on Saturday.

We need a spark in the backs next season...some fresh thinking.
Even for the last 2 games of the season.
Mehson, Spink, and other young strong-minded players.
There's a bit of mental fragility with Porter, Umaga, Odogwu and Crossdale. Even Robson at times.
Still waiting to see how Charlie evolves.

And scrum half is a bit of an issue at the moment if we're going to play our rugby off 9.

Excited to see our pack next season. A lot of work (and new ideas) needed for the backs.
Maybe some good mindset/psychology work could be done with the guys listed above.
It's all part of rugby these days.

Peej

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Re: Expectations
« Reply #41 on: May 16, 2022, 10:41:24 AM »
For me I don't really care about silverware.  It's always fun when we are in with a shout, and when we won in the past it was great.

But.

I care more about seeing Wasps players get try of the week, I care more about seeing our players in pundits teams of the week. I care more about the flashy moments of amazing skill and ridiculous stuff that somehow managed to come off.

I support wasps more for the glorious moments than the overall points.

Whether that is Jack stealing the ball from their ruck 1m off our line, Beale suckering the opposition with an offload out the back of the hand, Cips, finding a gap that didn't exist until he put someone in it. Wade running in his sixth try of the day. Smashley kicking out of hand down the line as if he'd forgotten he wasn't a winger.

The list is huge, but all these things come from a team that play like they love the game and believe in their own abilities. It doesn't feel like we have any of that right now.

Yes we might be doing just fine on paper, but it's hard to really care about a team that doesn't look like they care either...

Great post. I feel your sentiment.
We’ve lost some our DNA as a club.
Yes success, but keep applying the Wasps genes.
We nearly won the Premiership a couple of years ago with that exact spirit and approach.
That confidence to play.

However, that confidence to play has disappeared through coaching and team selection.

If we do all that we win things though. Even if we regress in style and win things, I'm happy. At the minute we're doing neither.

DGP Wasp

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Re: Expectations
« Reply #42 on: May 16, 2022, 10:56:31 AM »
I remember when we did attack brilliantly but when we played the big teams they would physically beat us up.

I prefer the foundations we currently have at the moment as long as we can see an improvement at 10, 12, 13 and 15.


Spot on. Some of the comments on this thread are bonkers - selective amnesia.

Selective amnesia indeed!

2014 up to about 2020 we played at times some brilliant, flowing rugby that was incredibly exciting to watch, behind an often creaking set piece.  But for much of that time, we were losing/throwing away tight games through poor game management and over ambition when containment was needed, and posters on here and DW were saying that they would gladly swap the flashy stuff for more consistent results.

Now we have a solid set piece, but the backs behind it failing to click, but we are mostly winning (still with a bit of an issue closing out games), and misty eyed posters on here are yearning for the days when it was like watching the Baa-Baas every week.

I wonder (and without directing criticism at any individual) how many of those posters were the same and will simply never be happy!

The team is being rebuilt after a few years of high player turnover with big starts coming and going, and when you rebuild a team you start with the forwards.  That foundation is now in place, especially with the newcomers in the front row.  Previously we invested heavily in some big name backs, without first having that forward platform in place.  Those backs were often good enough to work with what they had, aided and abetted by a few stellar 7s, but we were putting the cart in front of the horse.  The horse is now in fine fettle, so spend the summer working on the cart.

Steve from Cov

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Re: Expectations
« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2022, 11:07:26 AM »
I remember when we did attack brilliantly but when we played the big teams they would physically beat us up.

I prefer the foundations we currently have at the moment as long as we can see an improvement at 10, 12, 13 and 15.


Spot on. Some of the comments on this thread are bonkers - selective amnesia.

Selective amnesia indeed!

2014 up to about 2020 we played at times some brilliant, flowing rugby that was incredibly exciting to watch, behind an often creaking set piece.  But for much of that time, we were losing/throwing away tight games through poor game management and over ambition when containment was needed, and posters on here and DW were saying that they would gladly swap the flashy stuff for more consistent results.

Now we have a solid set piece, but the backs behind it failing to click, but we are mostly winning (still with a bit of an issue closing out games), and misty eyed posters on here are yearning for the days when it was like watching the Baa-Baas every week.

I wonder (and without directing criticism at any individual) how many of those posters were the same and will simply never be happy!

The team is being rebuilt after a few years of high player turnover with big starts coming and going, and when you rebuild a team you start with the forwards.  That foundation is now in place, especially with the newcomers in the front row.  Previously we invested heavily in some big name backs, without first having that forward platform in place.  Those backs were often good enough to work with what they had, aided and abetted by a few stellar 7s, but we were putting the cart in front of the horse.  The horse is now in fine fettle, so spend the summer working on the cart.

+1.

BarossaD

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Re: Expectations
« Reply #44 on: May 16, 2022, 11:09:29 AM »
For me. while I'd love us to finish the season with a stack of silverware, it's more about focusing on the controllables, so good outcomes for next season are:
Develop and communicate a clear identity/playing style - see comments above re attractive attacking rugby v identikit prem team
Recruit/promote so we have cover at each position to avoid such frequent playing out of position
Execute well - for me, that means enough continuity that players are on the same wavelength enough to reduce the silly mistakes, e.g., the number of knock-ons on Saturday BUT enough variety to develop the squad and reduce injury risk. A tough balance to get right
Off-pitch, continue to develop local links and support

Get those right, and the crowds and silverware will come.