Always a Wasp

Author Topic: Eddie Jones  (Read 4687 times)

matelot22

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #45 on: August 11, 2022, 10:03:37 AM »
So much of sport is mental. Players play better when they're enjoying themselves. It can be seen all the time.
No one is enjoying it at the moment and it shows

absobloodylutely, 100% agree

mike909

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #46 on: August 11, 2022, 02:28:13 PM »
Re the leaders angle. I do think that the environment is vital. The player of last season (outside Wasps...) was for me Nick I who when with Saints showed the form that seemed to have gone missing at the EA's. More interestingly, under the eye of their coach who seems to prefer a more "open" atmosphere - he demonstrated on field leadership. Or at least, led discussions on the lineout especially and looked like a senior player, able to take the role of leader/making suggestions etc.

The EA's showed - for me - just how well you can do with a fairly static plan and too many players....But on the occasions that we've put loads of points on them, the Valentines Day game and the 60 pointer season before last, they seemed like a team without the ability to counter Wasps at their free thinking best. That 60-10 win was on my rewatch list a month or so back - and what was obvious was that our attack was many faceted - but that the EA's really didn't know what they were doing once plan A had been shown up.

So with Jones - if the game plan is 100% right and needs no changes - SF vs NZ, fine, but if your plan is not working....England are too often in trouble. Recently we saw that in the 2021 6Ns vs Scotland (keep running into tacklers and kicking the ball to a good back three....) and Wales (fail to notice Wales wanted to play fast and wide) and vs Ireland (seemed to be introduced in the car park pre game and kept running into tacklers and not doing the basics, at all) And oddly, we saw the "if it's working" in the same tournament vs France....

So I think England will likely improve as and when the coaching side changes - so that the players have the environment to do well.....

wasps

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2022, 03:14:34 PM »



In field leadership is obviously important, but it's very different at top level sport than it is for most of us playing on a Saturday.


When I captained my team, I was completely blind to whatever the opposition were doing.
At top level rugby, there's analysts and coaches watching every play and an unofficial messaging system via the water boys that should be able to change any game plan.
It doesn't need on field decision making most of the time.


When there's a decision for a scrum or lineout, kick at posts or kick for the corner etc. It's mostly in the hands of the captain of kicker to make the decision......
And more often than not, they're all in agreement.




For Wasps, our undoing is so often closing games out, with poor decisions being made countless times within 60 seconds.
Unfortunately, it's hard for any leader to stop something which happens that quickly. Usually it'd be drilled into the players away from the pitch so that any brain farts should be few and far between.


hopwood

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #48 on: August 11, 2022, 06:08:42 PM »
Billy was at Harrow too.  Don't know what that tells you tho'.

It tells you a couple of things.
One…top schools scout around for top talent to bring in to elevate their senior rugby sides.
Two…to use these ‘scholarship kids’ as leadership examples of the whole private school system is misguided.
They arrive at the schools not knowing anyone, and 3 years behind in relationships.
It takes the first year just to get to know how the school works, who’s called what…build a level of trust etc.

Albeit some are great talents, they aren’t a true representation of the whole schooling system.
And yup, Billy was transferred in in the 6th form….and not for his intellect.

Jones is just making inflammatory remarks without any understanding of how things actually are.
Fraser Waters is a good example of a Harrow boy who was at the school for all 5 years…and for me, demonstrated good intellect and leadership.
But then again, that only really came to the fore after Shaun Edwards arrived at the club.
And Edwards is an example of a coach who knows what he’s doing, especially tinkering with the psychology of the players.
Jones isn’t.




Vespula Vulgaris

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #49 on: August 11, 2022, 08:05:17 PM »
The most laughable thing for me is Crazy Eddie not realising that the "leaders" in his squad are simply emulating the leadership they experience.

If they are failing en masse it is because of the overall leader. The one that sets the tone for everyone else to copy. The angry little man himself.
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Shugs

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #50 on: August 11, 2022, 10:55:51 PM »
Completely agree VV. Although it is possible they’ve realised that if they don’t cast themselves in the image of Jones they will simply be dropped. Personally, I’m desperate for his tenure to end so that I can get enthused about England again.

Bloke in North Dorset

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #51 on: August 12, 2022, 06:06:50 AM »
The most laughable thing for me is Crazy Eddie not realising that the "leaders" in his squad are simply emulating the leadership they experience.

If they are failing en masse it is because of the overall leader. The one that sets the tone for everyone else to copy. The angry little man himself.
+1.
As the old saying goes: a fish rots from the head down.

hopwood

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #52 on: August 12, 2022, 10:18:09 AM »
The most laughable thing for me is Crazy Eddie not realising that the "leaders" in his squad are simply emulating the leadership they experience.

If they are failing en masse it is because of the overall leader. The one that sets the tone for everyone else to copy. The angry little man himself.
+1.
As the old saying goes: a fish rots from the head down.

+1 to all that.
His lack of self awareness is quite extraordinary.

hopwood

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #53 on: August 12, 2022, 10:28:23 AM »
Danny Cipriani gives his insight…and I agree with his point about there being no Plan B, if Plan A doesn’t work.
Plan B is all about leadership, on-field decision making and the freedom to change things around without guidance from the sidelines. And ‘controlling Eddie’ for the first 6 years of his tenure hasn’t handed that responsibility over to the players.
And NOW he complains about a lack of on-field leadership when all he’s done is programmed them to follow his specific in-depth technical instructions 🙈.

DANNY CIPRIANI: Eddie Jones was wrong to pin England's failings on the private school system

There is some merit to what Eddie Jones said when he criticised English rugby's private school system.
The game in this country does have a class and participation issue in that it does not reach out to enough children from council estates or state schools.

There is a class bias shown at times. The result of that is talent being missed. This stems from the top of the Rugby Football Union and is not the fault of the schooling system.

Eddie said English rugby players who are educated privately do not develop enough leadership skills or the ability to deal with adversity because of their schooling.

He believes England should 'blow the whole thing up' to try to improve the chances of future success.

But the reason Eddie is not getting the type of players he says he wants is because of the environment he creates with England and not the schooling system. That is an easy target.

I'd like to think I come from a middle ground and a neutral perspective on this topic.

I grew up on a council estate but was fortunate to be able to attend private schools on scholarships because of my ability in rugby and other sports.

My education was at Donhead, Oratory School and Whitgift School. All three are great schools which I would likely not have had the chance to go to unless I was good at sport.

The private school system in England has allowed a lot of people to flourish and have successful rugby careers who might not have done so had they gone to other places of education. I count myself among that number.

Don't get me wrong, the private system is not perfect. It misses a lot of potential talent.

Historically, there has been a systemic class issue within English rugby because of who the majority of the participants are.

The RFU do need to do more to make the game more inclusive for everyone. They needs to try to attract people from every class of society and increase participation.

At the professional level, players have been forced to take pay cuts and at the grassroots participation is down and the game itself is declining in some areas. A lot of that can be pointed back to how the RFU runs things. But that is a different point from the one which Eddie raised about the lack of leadership in his players.

Eddie should look at himself rather than criticise others. The environment you create as a coach is reflected by the performance of your team and players.

If a coach creates a decision-making environment which allows his or her players to problem solve, have an input on how the team is run, and is self-reflective of his or her own performance, then their side's ability to react under pressure will grow. Eddie does not do that.

When the team loses, Eddie points the finger elsewhere. The situations he creates in training are all about generating quick ball. If the ball is not quick, then he turns it over.

The bigger question is: can your attacking framework create quick ball?

Everyone wants quick ball, but it is not always possible and teams need to learn how to create it. England currently do not win games on their attack shape, unlike Ireland who are leading the way right now.

When England are matched physically, that is when you see them struggle because they do not have the attacking structure to break teams down. Because the players are told exactly what to do by Eddie and how the game will go, they struggle to react when things do not go to plan.

Again, to be clear, this is not down to their education but is the fault of the England set-up, driven by Jones as head coach.

Often people say you need to 'play the game' with coaches because a lot of them do not like to have conversations on their ideas. They just want you to go on the field and do as they say.

Equally, a lot of players like to be told what to do. That is fine and works for some, but if you have too many players like that, it means you have a team who cannot think on their feet and react under pressure.

As a player, you often get dismissed as trouble if you question the coach because there is a traditional hierarchy within the game.

I've been lucky in my career that some of my coaches like Shaun Edwards, Brian Ashton and Warren Gatland were open to hearing my views. Many others are not. Eddie is a coach who does not like to be questioned.

Any player who speaks his mind in this England environment is dismissed. Just look at what happened to Danny Care.

He spent four years away because he confronted Eddie. Surely a coach who wants players to think for themselves would encourage two-way conversation?

The ability to solve problems on the pitch is key to being a successful team because no game, however much you plan or train, goes perfectly.

A good example of a team who are excellent at that are Harlequins, particularly in the season they won the Premiership.

How many times did they come from behind to win games that year? It showed their players had leadership skills and the ability to bounce back from adversity.

Two guys who were key to that success were Danny and Marcus Smith. But when they play for England, they do not play with the same freedom.

To me that speaks volumes of England's environment under Eddie. He is in charge and all the messages come from him. That much has also been shown by the fact Eddie has had a total of 17 assistants since he took charge after the failure of the 2015 World Cup. The huge turnover of staff shows uncertainty and a lack of understanding within the environment.

For England to go to the next level and produce consistent, winning rugby, they need an environment which regularly challenges the players on their rugby intelligence and decision-making. If they get that, it will create a group who can problem-solve on the run in games.

Many things can be looked at in rugby and where the player pool comes from is one of them.

But rather than focus on that, let's start with an England coach who takes responsibility.


mike909

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #54 on: August 12, 2022, 11:41:28 AM »
Thanks for posting that. Not only does it tie in with how England have played - especially since the RWC, but matches much written about Jones as a coach over a long period.

The main disappointment with England's 6 losses in the last two 6Ns was not so much the results but the lack of engagement of the top two inches. It matches what Danny was saying. In 2021, we lost to Scotland by repeatedly doing the same thing and expecting a different result (well, I'm assuming the second part..) and never looked like winning. Ditto vs Wales and the worst was vs Ireland, who didn't need to play well to win easily in Dublin as England never looked to have any ideas. This 6Ns, we seemingly failed to make much of our physical advantages and looked clueless vs Scotland, trying hard vs Ireland and not stretching a France team that wasn't on form that day. We scored 3 tries....all tournament - other than vs Italy.

Like Shugs - I'm struggling to get behind England. I felt more for the teams in the 70's and 80's that were often rather ordinary - but I could at least get the odd ticket to see (from about 1973!) They could easily win the RWC next year - they have access to ugly packs and the dream draw - but I actually hope they don't as it would - for me - condone this approach and waste of players. Especially inexperienced players as outlined by the Saints coach in an interview recently.

matelot22

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #55 on: August 12, 2022, 11:58:01 AM »
Thanks Hopwood, great article