Teams Up for Bath

[Jac A]

I was wondering exactly the same - when did routinely subbing scrum halves become a thing?

About the same time as routinely subbing everyone else became a thing.

Agree, it's not that new. I had a quick look back to the start of the 2015 season, first 7 games were all Simpson and Robson, sub times were: 60', 55', 59', 65', 63', 53' and 64' which is pretty consistent with the times for the end of last season and start of this one.

[westwaleswasp]

When did starting your best 9 on the bench become a thing?
Not sure how Jacob comes in when 15 was one if the few success stories last week.
Frankly, I feel there is something odd afoot, regardless of the stories about the finances.

[Rossm]

When did starting your best 9 on the bench become a thing?
Not sure how Jacob comes in when 15 was one if the few success stories last week.
Frankly, I feel there is something odd afoot, regardless of the stories about the finances.

With both Matteo and Ali injured, then you could say that Jacob is 3rd choice.

[DGP Wasp]

When did starting your best 9 on the bench become a thing?
Not sure how Jacob comes in when 15 was one if the few success stories last week.
Frankly, I feel there is something odd afoot, regardless of the stories about the finances.

As with so many other things, the answer is "Blame Sarries"!

Through much of their successful (I know!) period in the 2010s they had 2 international scrum halves to keep sweet with neither De Kock or Wigglesworth a first choice as such, just rotated in and out as needed.

Looking back through Premiership finals up to that point, backs were hardly ever subbed, much less half backs.  In Wasps' last successful final, all 7 starting backs played the whole game, but for a couple of last minute changes to get everyone on when the game was already won.

[Vespula Vulgaris]

When did starting your best 9 on the bench become a thing?
Not sure how Jacob comes in when 15 was one if the few success stories last week.
Frankly, I feel there is something odd afoot, regardless of the stories about the finances.

I'd guess Lee knows he needs to turn things around relatively quickly or find himself in trouble so is grasping at straws.

We saw some odd selection choices for a while when things weren't going well for DY.

[baldpaul101]

I'd guess Lee knows he needs to turn things around relatively quickly or find himself in trouble

but is he reallly?
I know theres a few vocal posters on here who want him gone but how wider is that feeling?
How does the club management & players feel?

Genuine question.

[Vespula Vulgaris]

I'd guess Lee knows he needs to turn things around relatively quickly or find himself in trouble

but is he reallly?
I know theres a few vocal posters on here who want him gone but how wider is that feeling?
How does the club management & players feel?

Genuine question.

I don't know for sure, hence "I'd guess", but I would expect that the powers that be are fully aware of both the performances, and how they are being receieved by the fan base.

[baldpaul101]

I personally am frustrated with the performances from the last few seasons when essentially the same team stormed to the final not that long ago. For me the coaching team have had enough time to fix the problem & get playing the way we know they can, but I don't know whether this means the coaches should be replaced. Maybe its time for a change of some kind?
It took a lot of poor performances for Dai Young to get the sack, I can't see Derek acting swiftly to replace LB, especially with the current financial issues.

[hookender]

I personally am frustrated with the performances from the last few seasons when essentially the same team stormed to the final not that long ago. For me the coaching team have had enough time to fix the problem & get playing the way we know they can, but I don't know whether this means the coaches should be replaced. Maybe its time for a change of some kind?
It took a lot of poor performances for Dai Young to get the sack, I can't see Derek acting swiftly to replace LB, especially with the current financial issues.

And who would be willing to come here as a replacement at the moment? ( unless their at a club that they think is in bigger doodoos than us).

[coddy]

Scrum Halves need to literally follow the ball all game so they should be flagging by the hour mark.

It's no coincidence that supporters are often saying the replacement no 9 upped the tempo and moved the ball quicker than the starting 9, it's because outside the set pieces he's been running almost non stop.

[wasps]

I personally am frustrated with the performances from the last few seasons when essentially the same team stormed to the final not that long ago. For me the coaching team have had enough time to fix the problem & get playing the way we know they can, but I don't know whether this means the coaches should be replaced. Maybe its time for a change of some kind?
It took a lot of poor performances for Dai Young to get the sack, I can't see Derek acting swiftly to replace LB, especially with the current financial issues.

Agree.
I do wonder if Lee got the job because finances were already tight and it was cheaper to promote from within.


That being said, coaches can learn from adversity. Look what has happened to Stuart Lancaster following England's world cup[size=78%].[/size]
Once promoted to the top job, Lee should absolutely be trusted to run the team, and once problems set in, be given the time to show he can turn it around. He's now had time, and opportunity to fix the weaknesses he's identified, so this is now the time for him to show what we can do.






An interesting question...
How many would have Dai back as head coach?

[DGP Wasp]

Scrum Halves need to literally follow the ball all game so they should be flagging by the hour mark.

It's no coincidence that supporters are often saying the replacement no 9 upped the tempo and moved the ball quicker than the starting 9, it's because outside the set pieces he's been running almost non stop.

2004 Heineken Cup Final.  Final minute.  33 year old starting scrum half still looked like he had plenty in the tank.  So what's changed?

[Jac A]

I think there have been more changes in those 18 years than many would think.

Looking at averages from back then to now, ball in play time has increased by almost 10%, the number of rucks by over 20% and the number of tackles almost 35%. So, a 9 would have more breakdowns to get to and be covering more ground than they were c.2004. Also the number of box kicks and therefore kicks a 9 is making have increased - back in 2003 for example only 6% of kicks were box kicks, now around 25% of kicks are and that will increase the workload on the 9.
You could equally ask why we change props when in 2003 the whole Woodman, Thomspon and Baxter played 100 mins and Vickery and Young were only changed in injury time.

I had a look back and the change started to happen around 2010-12, for example in the 2011-12 season we had Nic Berry and Joe Simpson regularly swapping at around the 55 min mark.

I do think any professional scrum half could play 80 mins and still have some running in them but I also think that it is one of the positions where a change can re-energise the attack.

[westwaleswasp]

When did starting your best 9 on the bench become a thing?
Not sure how Jacob comes in when 15 was one if the few success stories last week.
Frankly, I feel there is something odd afoot, regardless of the stories about the finances.

With both Matteo and Ali injured, then you could say that Jacob is 3rd choice.

Apologies- forgot Ali got a knock

[wasps]

It's probably that players output and explosiveness is monitored more now than it used to be.


If their intensity drops by x% then they likely get replaced