Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: baldpaul101 on June 20, 2023, 12:07:45 PM
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So, theres been a very long silence from Wasps. We know that Championship rugby is not going to happen. What do we think WILL happen?
Options seem to be.
1. Nothing. Its over Wasps as a professional club is gone.
2. Wasps make some kind of deal with the amateur club & merge the two parts back into one & play in London SE Counties 2 Herts/Middx like Wlesh did (not actually sure what the pro side of the game have actually got to contribute?.?)
3. Start again at the bottom of the league structure with an amateur side. Assuming that Birmingham city staying at the EPIC precludes the use of that to play matches on, so not sure where this would be based?
4. Re-appear as some kind of ?Franchise? club in a re-structured league system. Although this has been mentioned no one seems to know what this means, how it will work or where they would physically play.
Option 2 would need to be already starting if they want to be ready for September.
Option 3 can probably be left a lot later, pulling together a scratch side & renting match day pitches on another clubs ground can be done quite quickly IMO.
Option 4 is totally dependent on the much mentioned ?game restructure? which is seems to be just an idea someone?s had. Any such restructure will be too late for the new season I would have thought?
IMO Option 3 will end up becoming Option 1.
Option 4 will never really materialise, so will also end up as Option 1.
Although I guess Option 2 or 3 could morph into Option 4 if it ever actually happens.
My head says 1, heart says 2.
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1
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1
+1
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Just like everyone else, I haven't got a Scooby.
I couldn't even hazard a guess at this stage.
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I can't see it how it isn't Opt 1, at least for the coming season.
Opt 2: If a deal was being done somebody will have been tempted to leak to the press for the reason people always like to leak to the press - it makes them look like they're in the know.
Opt 3: If they were starting at the bottom this season there would have needed to be applications to use grounds for safety and other reasons and these are public applications in case someone wants to object.
Opt 4: The franchise idea seems to have been a bit of balloon trailing to see what the response was and nobody serious appears to be talking about it, so it isn't happening for the coming season, if it ever does.
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Opt 3: If they were starting at the bottom this season there would have needed to be applications to use grounds for safety and other reasons and these are public applications in case someone wants to object.
At level 10 I don't think you need anything other than somewhere to change & a pitch with posts (sometimes not even a full set!!)
You could agree to rent a local grass roots club facilities & pitch for match days, most clubs would love the extra income!
For me, if nothing happens this season I don't see how anything can. Supporters & potential sponsors, backers etc will have lost interest.
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Wasps can only come back if the current system explodes. At that point a lot of established names might be in need of ressurection. Irish and Wasps in particular are established names, with widespread support. If you were restarting a league and establishing the teams yourself both would be good shouts. I suspect if a seat at the top table was on offer in a new sustainable system with some central funding and control, the Wasps legends could get the money together.
Is it likely that the whole thing implodes? HMRC knock on one or two doors, maybe the economy keeps tanking- who knows- how many dominoes would it take to leave 6 or fewer standing? Not many. It won't be next year, come back in a couple and see.
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1
I wish it was any of the others, but I have no faith that any real effort was ever made to try to save the club, and I certainly don't think anyone with any ability to actually do anything is trying now.
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There's a distinct feeling of 'dead in the water'.
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It feels more and more like it's 1, or at least 1 for this next season.
After that maybe it's 3 or 4.
There seem to be comments occasionally form Scriv's Pudsey etc that it's not over but it's becoming harder to have any faith.
I guess the interesting thing will be what happens to Irish, as they are done from the Prem, but with deadlines set and missed for Wasps, they can't give them a new later deadline so I can't see how they can join the Championship, so are they the same as Wasps or are they being given a lifeline for the following season?
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It's over.
If there's money to be had to put into a phoenix club, why would it be out there? There's little prospect of a return, you'd be better off leaving your money elsewhere.
The pro game us going to implode at some point fairly soon, maybe something can come out of that. However, the chances must be slim.
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Part of me would love to see them pop up in France or Italy. They already have taken over the backline of Benetton! Seems more likely than in the English system.
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I think it?s 1 with a possibility of 3 in a seasons time. As far as I can see nothing actually exists and no one is employed to change that. People can?t keep doing it for free. So I think 1 is likely but leaves some questions. Holland spent over ?100k on the name. Is he willing to just write that off? Is it chicken feed to him? Will he actually end up making a tidy sum by flogging epic to Birmingham? Also, what was his loan to Atlas all about and where has that finished up? If Pudsey is still employed at epic presumably Holland?s paying him out of the rent? (Suppose he?ll TUPE to Birmingham if sold.
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Holland spent over ?100k on the name. Is he willing to just write that off? Is it chicken feed to him? Will he actually end up making a tidy sum by flogging epic to Birmingham?
If his choice is to pile more funds in to make New Wasps a goer he may prefer to cut his losses and, as you suggest he may make his money back on the EPIC if he sells or rents to Birmingham
Also, what was his loan to Atlas all about and where has that finished up?
I too am interested in where this ends up. Theres been total silence from Atlas & Begbies & no rumours of whats going on on the Warriors message board
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Wasps, Worcester and London Irish handed lifeline talks to include them in new ?Premiership 2
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/rugby/wasps-worcester-and-london-irish-handed-lifeline-talks-to-include-them-in-new-premiership-2/ar-AA1d2voF?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=70fe562128cc4dc2abec1700912c12f9&ei=113
Hope springs eternal :-\
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That sits under my Option 4, but its too early to say if it will amount to anything IMO.
Theres also the question of how much a franchise Wasps (& Warriors & Irish) would feel like to supporters? Yes they are well known names with great history but how many actual supporters of those clubs will be interested? How many will be left to be interested?
The 3 clubs that have gone bust are now just badges & IP. But as we all know theres more to supporting a club than just a badge.
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Of all the ideas on how to save professional rugby that have been floated this is the only one that has appeared credible and remains afloat. However, it won't work without promotion and relegation and to that end the artificial barriers for protecting the PRL such as ground size, need to be removed or significantly lowered.
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This has the stench of CVC about it.
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I hope to God something positive really does result from this, and IF it does I hope to God I'm still around to see it.
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Does this really change anything though? There won't be any more money to go around (or significantly more anyway), so what is left will be spread more thinly unless the idea is to remove the cap and let everyone spend what they can. Until they deal with the perennial cheating (and get the media to stop lauding cheating) then everything else is fiddling around the edges.
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It sounds like a cut and paste of the Rugby League set up going forward.
It's bloody daft.
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The sale agreement for Birmingham City has just been released to HKSE and confirms BCFC are paying ?28,000 per month to lease the EPIC according someone who has read through the documents
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The sale agreement for Birmingham City has just been released to HKSE and confirms BCFC are paying ?28,000 per month to lease the EPIC according someone who has read through the documents
Nice wedge.
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Of all the ideas on how to save professional rugby that have been floated this is the only one that has appeared credible and remains afloat. However, it won't work without promotion and relegation and to that end the artificial barriers for protecting the PRL such as ground size, need to be removed or significantly lowered.
Not sure about credible, lots of have mentioned a two-division structure. Problem is that the same trio involved in running/owning the Premiership and Championship (RFU, PRL and CVC) are the same trio trying to conjour up a solution to the very problems they've created. When you read this garage, it sounds like (once again) they're wide of the mark:
t is not yet clear what conditions to regain entry would be, but there is a widespread view that their return would help consolidate the rebranding and streamlining of English rugby?s top two tiers.
The most likely pathway would involve a move to a franchise system that will see clubs able to gain entry if they can prove they meet a revised minimum standards criteria that goes beyond having a stadium with a capacity of 10,000 but is also likely to include levels of support, strength of brand name, size of social media following and a long-term vision for growth.
This ties in with PRLs suggestion that fans want and can be guaranteed a really premium experience for Premiership Rugby. Not that first they need to fix the economics of rugby, work out a sustainable long-term plan, or help teams make sure they can get the best players on the pitch so more casual fans can see the stars of the game. You know, the important bits.
The best thing Wasps, Irish and Warriors could do is break away from those 3 completely then seek to encourage as many of the other Prem Teams over as possible - that way, they stand a chance of doing things properly.
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Is there any pro sport in Enland that is entirely self funded via fan ticketing prices, fund raisers (like meals/parties, bucket shakers), in ground purchases (parking, drinks, food, programmes), equipment sponsorship (shirts) and pitch side advertising, and merchandise? What I would deem as 'genuine' community income, as apposed to some billionaire writing a cheque with a ton of zeroes.
At grass roots, most local Rugby Union clubs have found a way to balance their books on a sustainable level. It is only the top two tiers and at International level that expenditure exceeds income.
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So two months on from my original post I think we know what is NOT going to happen.
No deal has been made with Wasps Amateurs to re-join & play at Twyford Avenue & the RFU have stated that Wasps has not requested to play at any level in their league structure.
Given that must mean nothing is going to happen in the coming season, lets have some kind of announcement stating that & explaining some of the details of why?
But, nothing on the website since May, only a few hints from Pudsey that something might be happening, but nothing ever seems to & complete silence from anyone that we know is involved in whats left of Wasps. Come on, communicate!
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Ball is likely in the RFU and PRL Court over a championship rebrand to prem ii. They need to get ten convincing clubs together.
Personally I think it will fail, because none of the prem I clubs will want to share any toys any time soon, the RFU and PRL won't work together, and all current prem clubs will want barriers to promotion.
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The legends were clear first time round that they wouldn?t announce anything until there was something concrete to comment on. I think that?s the reason for the silence. Unfortunately it also probably means nothing is happening.
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Totally baseless, but I would expect any movement to be a matter of months, minimum.
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I would normally agree that if you have nothing to say, then keep quiet.
But on that basis we may hear nothing till the fag end of next season when (if!!) the prem 1 & 2 plan gets announced.
There might not be many Wasps fans left to communicate with at that point if they don't start engaging soon.....
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I would normally agree that if you have nothing to say, then keep quiet.
But on that basis we may hear nothing till the fag end of next season when (if!!) the prem 1 & 2 plan gets announced.
There might not be many Wasps fans left to communicate with at that point if they don't start engaging soon.....
Once a Wasp always a Wasp.
Although I understand the point about not saying anything unless you've got something to say it would be nice if they said they had nothing yet to say, just so we know there's a pulse.
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If they are waiting fro Prem 2 to happen, and waiting for an invite, it is likely they are not planning at the same time for a low league entry.
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If the Prem 1/2 actually happens, will the RFU still impose the rugby debt repayment?
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If the Prem 1/2 actually happens, will the RFU still impose the rugby debt repayment?
Probably, but who knows? They are making it up as they go along right now.
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Well Danny's not holding back - https://twitter.com/DannyCipriani87
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Here's a direct link to his tweet.
https://twitter.com/DannyCipriani87/status/1693180086558634407?t=1aN5f8llVE0166_EcgM4fw&s=19
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This was very interesting
It doesn?t mean Borthwick isn?t right for the job. He has clearly grown from a player to a coach. He over took a very wooden system left by Eddie. Which is a very tough job to get the players to unlearn what was ingrained in them
Since the 2020 6Ns when England used the backbone of the 2019 WC team to carry on the "focus". That WC team of course - being based on the one which did so well at U-20's level and was winning 80% of 6Ns games prior to the 2015 WC. And given what Lancaster has done since....perhaps we were unfortunate with that tournament's outcome. One which facilitated hiring jones. A man renown for short term gains but also for losing the dressing room and not liking challenge (Hence the turnover of coaches - all 17 of them....)
So that period from the Junior world cup wins/performances that left a legacy of players essentially ran out of steam almost the same time as "Peak Jones". And since the 100% and 91% win percentage years - it's been a record of decent years alongside (under Jones) three awful 6Ns (winning 2 of 5) a few opportune wins to "bolster the myth" but - for me - an underlying concern about a team that could win any game (if prepared like crazy for that one game - Jones' speciality - Japan vs SA, England vs NZ etc.) but was increasingly looking like it was being found out and ideas were running out?
I'm uncertain I have many ideas about anything in the short term. But England must look to the future from next 6Ns....
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England couldn't do much worse than what they are doing at the moment so they might as well complete a comprehensive review of the way rugby is coached/played etc. and promote those up and coming players in a similar way to the French over the last few years.
However, for this to work it requires buy-in from everyone from the top of the RFU down to us supporters.
For the RFU, it's about looking at the best way to make English rugby successful again in the longer term and limiting the influence of certain clubs (who shall remain nameless).
It's also about understanding that results may not go our way instantly and England may experience a poor 6N or two, maybe a WC, with the promise that everything comes together at some point. Can the RFU accept that? Can supporters?
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I agree with what you say, but to be somewhat pedantic:
However, for this to work it requires buy-in from everyone from the top of the RFU down to us supporters.
Your never going to get the buy-in of everyone because there are always winners and losers with change and the losers are generally incumbent, organised and vocal (the Seen). On the other hand the winners are generally unseen, often unknown and therefore unorganised.
This is where a much overused term is required: Leadership. Leadership isn't being appointed to senior management, getting a key to the executive toilet and claiming to be part of a leadership team. Its about having the vision and ability to communicate the needs for the change and the benefits but more importantly its having the moral strength and ability to make it happen against the organised resistance and bureaucratic inertia.
Sadly, the RFU has shown a distinct lack of leadership.
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Plus 1 BinD. You spoke a book.
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For the RFU, it's about looking at the best way to make English rugby successful again in the longer term and limiting the influence of certain clubs (who shall remain nameless).
I don't want this to degenerate in to the usual bashing, our opinions and disgust are well known, but I have been thinking about the 2nd and higher order affects of the concentration, legally or illegally, of so much of a country's top talent in one team, especially when that team play an overcoached system that relies on power rather skill to overwhelm its opponents.
Players want to play for that team because they naturally want to be playing top tier rugby and winning trophies. That brings financial reward beyond just salaries and win bonuses if that is what motivates players. That in itself is a reason for players to play the system and obey the coaches, because they know they are easily replaced.
A pliant 2nd best player being better than a renegade best player being a possible result, with the 2nd best player looking better than he is because he's in a winning team and the best player not looking as good because he's playing for a struggling team and even getting more injuries because he's having to play more. This is what I mean by higher order effects.
As we've seen, this has also meant that England has had to rely on the English players from that club for the core of the team. That has led to importing that club's culture and playing style because that's what those players are comfortable with and to a certain extent forces the England head coaches to build on it.
This means that players from other clubs joining England have to fit in and be accepted by the core players and we've heard rumours of strife in the camp when other players don't fit in. I wonder how much this affects moral? We're often told its high but who is going to rock the boat and say it isn't?
Eddie appears to have been comfortable with this arrangement but I wonder how much it affected the other coaches who've wanted to play a different style and maybe been blocked by these core players' inability or unwillingness to play a different style of rugby?
What we've witnessed over that past 6 or 7 years is an England team that can only grind out wins but when things aren't going well on the field have shown in a number of matches an inability to think and adapt to what's in front of them. But what about beating NZ in the semi final? Yes, great win but probably set us back again because the focus was on that one game and not all the rest of the bad performances.
One point I'm making here is that central contracts with the RFU directing where players play might not be the panacea some might hope if it leads to stagnant coaching because success comes easily at the club level.
The answer is still that we need a decent sized top tier league with teams being on more or less a level playing field when it comes to salary meaning coaches having to develop players and playing styles with the good and innovative ones coming out on top. Those teams need to be distributed around the country to spread the game eg players going in to clubs, coaching camps during school holidays and being seen as part of the community.
But what about Ireland? A much smaller place and player pool so four teams is realistically the most they can support and its easier for those players to get in to the community is my argument against going down to such a route or if they do perhaps 10 teams evenly distribute about the major population centres is the minimum.
In conclusion, a concentration of player/coaching power, no matter how it is achieved, is bad for the game in England.
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My nine year old, knowing the season should start soon, asked me yesterday when Wasps will play again. He was disappointed when I had to tell him Wasps may never play again. He replied that there is no-one in the prem for him to support anymore. A whole generation of kids who would have followed Wasps, Wuss and Irish are being lost to the sport.
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@BiND
The only way you fix that dilemma is to examine what causes the power game (as typified by Tigers and Sarries, to name but two teams) to be successful.
The answer is, the laws of the game. Slowly, year by year, the changes have favored that approach.
It would be nice, but we cannot outlaw 'big' players, but we can change the laws to persuade the coaches away from the power game.
* Free kick becomes the maximum punishment for scrum/maul collapse or turning.
* Still allow 8 replacements on the bench, but you can use only 4, or maybe 5, of them, except in the case of a player being injured due to a yellow or red card offence. So they can be true replacements instead of 'finishers'. Maximum of 3 replacements for the pack, maximum of 2 for the backs. Forces player selection to lighter players who can run the 80 minutes.
* No penalty kick to your own lineout, instead it goes to the other side.
* No scrum option from penalties or free kicks.
* No rolling mauls from lineouts.
* Players in front of a kicker MUST retreat 10m before rejoining the game.
* Penalty kick to goal or drop goal only worth the same as a conversion, 2 points.
* Player who is held up is declared tackled if held for more than 5 seconds, and must be released to ground.
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I agree with what you say, but to be somewhat pedantic:
However, for this to work it requires buy-in from everyone from the top of the RFU down to us supporters.
Your never going to get the buy-in of everyone because there are always winners and losers with change and the losers are generally incumbent, organised and vocal (the Seen). On the other hand the winners are generally unseen, often unknown and therefore unorganised.
This is where a much overused term is required: Leadership. Leadership isn't being appointed to senior management, getting a key to the executive toilet and claiming to be part of a leadership team. Its about having the vision and ability to communicate the needs for the change and the benefits but more importantly its having the moral strength and ability to make it happen against the organised resistance and bureaucratic inertia.
Sadly, the RFU has shown a distinct lack of leadership.
I wouldn't say you're pedantic, your response actually is what I was trying to say but perhaps very simplistically! I completely understand, and would expect, there to be some sort of resistance from areas of the game.
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For the RFU, it's about looking at the best way to make English rugby successful again in the longer term and limiting the influence of certain clubs (who shall remain nameless).
I don't want this to degenerate in to the usual bashing, our opinions and disgust are well known, but I have been thinking about the 2nd and higher order affects of the concentration, legally or illegally, of so much of a country's top talent in one team, especially when that team play an overcoached system that relies on power rather skill to overwhelm its opponents.
Players want to play for that team because they naturally want to be playing top tier rugby and winning trophies. That brings financial reward beyond just salaries and win bonuses if that is what motivates players. That in itself is a reason for players to play the system and obey the coaches, because they know they are easily replaced.
A pliant 2nd best player being better than a renegade best player being a possible result, with the 2nd best player looking better than he is because he's in a winning team and the best player not looking as good because he's playing for a struggling team and even getting more injuries because he's having to play more. This is what I mean by higher order effects.
As we've seen, this has also meant that England has had to rely on the English players from that club for the core of the team. That has led to importing that club's culture and playing style because that's what those players are comfortable with and to a certain extent forces the England head coaches to build on it.
This means that players from other clubs joining England have to fit in and be accepted by the core players and we've heard rumours of strife in the camp when other players don't fit in. I wonder how much this affects moral? We're often told its high but who is going to rock the boat and say it isn't?
Eddie appears to have been comfortable with this arrangement but I wonder how much it affected the other coaches who've wanted to play a different style and maybe been blocked by these core players' inability or unwillingness to play a different style of rugby?
What we've witnessed over that past 6 or 7 years is an England team that can only grind out wins but when things aren't going well on the field have shown in a number of matches an inability to think and adapt to what's in front of them. But what about beating NZ in the semi final? Yes, great win but probably set us back again because the focus was on that one game and not all the rest of the bad performances.
One point I'm making here is that central contracts with the RFU directing where players play might not be the panacea some might hope if it leads to stagnant coaching because success comes easily at the club level.
The answer is still that we need a decent sized top tier league with teams being on more or less a level playing field when it comes to salary meaning coaches having to develop players and playing styles with the good and innovative ones coming out on top. Those teams need to be distributed around the country to spread the game eg players going in to clubs, coaching camps during school holidays and being seen as part of the community.
But what about Ireland? A much smaller place and player pool so four teams is realistically the most they can support and its easier for those players to get in to the community is my argument against going down to such a route or if they do perhaps 10 teams evenly distribute about the major population centres is the minimum.
In conclusion, a concentration of player/coaching power, no matter how it is achieved, is bad for the game in England.
The only thing I'd say about your response here BiND is that, for once, I'd actually managed to put my personal feelings on the subject of Tigers/Saracens et al to one side.
Everything else I agree with - the only reason I suggest that clubs may have more influence than other clubs is because I have my tin hat on and wonder how some players have managed to stay within the system. Some players have been able to perhaps hide behind a winning team but others may not have.
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Sorry if it came across as a criticism James, it wasn't meant to be. I'm usually one of the quickest to condemn the North London lot and know how quickly a thread can succumb to our natural desire to vent when they come up.
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@NWW,
Good points. I was thinking more about what's in the control of the RFU/PRL should they ever get around to the fabled review of the game here.
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@NWW,
Good points. I was thinking more about what's in the control of the RFU/PRL should they ever get around to the fabled review of the game here.
I understood that, but I think a lot of the problem is on the pitch, in the way the laws encourage coaches to coach, and players to play. No point of getting the 'leadership' sorted if what they are in charge of is broken.
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This started on Wasps (non)future but morphed into English rugby - hohum. Almost the same shit hole I suppose.
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If anyone was not already doing so, it now appears we can ignore Pudsey tweets. Last one spoke of two weeks (long since passed) and keep a look out.
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Perhaps he was forecasting that Farrell would be up in front of the Beak.
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This started on Wasps (non)future but morphed into English rugby - hohum. Almost the same shit hole I suppose.
Indeed. Despite most people on this board professing that they are not interested in pro rugby anymore & England are putting them off the international game etc etc, we have multiple threads about how bad England are & the one Wasps related thread ends up all about how bad England are as well!!
I also find the pavlovian response to the mention of Farrells name amusing, but I guess with no Wasps related news forthcoming, it's inevitable.
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For Wasps to come back a sustainable English structure needs to be put in place. These are intrinsically linked, one cannot happen without the other. The finances of England, as well as their organisational capability are germane to a Wasps future thread. Not only in a 'no England, no prem' simplistic way, but at a less superficial level of producing incremental growth in the numbers watching the club game needed for a twenty pro team system.
How England are playing might be tangential, but even then, the numbers of paying customers attracted to the game is going to be influenced in a small way by national sucess.
Even the existence of a cap, and the ongoing issues surrounding adherence to it is relevant to a Wasp future thread. These are fundamental issues. Wasps will probably evanesce. We know that is almost certain without structural change. The few indicators we have that point to a different outcome in a prem 1/2 system beg the question as to what is needed for Wasps to exist in that system.
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Highlighted in Facebook?
?As an aside, we have also been informed that there has been interest from a former owner of Wasps RFC in buying Sixways with the intention of trying to run a URC franchise at the stadium.?
https://www.wwst.co.uk/post/atlas-not-the-only-option
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Highlighted in Facebook?
?As an aside, we have also been informed that there has been interest from a former owner of Wasps RFC in buying Sixways with the intention of trying to run a URC franchise at the stadium.?
https://www.wwst.co.uk/post/atlas-not-the-only-option
Saw this too. Interesting. I'm assuming CH is the "former owner".
The URC angle is intriguing. I seem to remember one of the Wasps announcements just after admin saying something like (I paraphrase) "we'll be back, but it might not be under the RFU". Can't find the exact piece I'm thinking of though.
Might be a merger with one of the ailing Welsh regions being floated? Worcester is close-ish to the border!
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The URC angle is intriguing. I seem to remember one of the Wasps announcements just after admin saying something like (I paraphrase) "we'll be back, but it might not be under the RFU". Can't find the exact piece I'm thinking of though.
That was what my mind went to. It was a club statement on 18 May headlined 'Our exit from the Rugby Football Union'.
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The URC angle is intriguing. I seem to remember one of the Wasps announcements just after admin saying something like (I paraphrase) "we'll be back, but it might not be under the RFU". Can't find the exact piece I'm thinking of though.
That was what my mind went to. It was a club statement on 18 May headlined 'Our exit from the Rugby Football Union'.
+1
You got there as I was digging it out.
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The URC angle is intriguing. I seem to remember one of the Wasps announcements just after admin saying something like (I paraphrase) "we'll be back, but it might not be under the RFU". Can't find the exact piece I'm thinking of though.
That was what my mind went to. It was a club statement on 18 May headlined 'Our exit from the Rugby Football Union'.
Exactly that. Well played. Better memory skills than mine, clearly.
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Would that mean that anyone who plays for such a club might not be eligible to play for England?
At the moment I can see that as being an advantage but...
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The RFU and iRFU will do everything they can to prevent territorial incursions by other tournaments and leagues. If your ground is in England, you WILL be subject to the RFU and will NOT be allowed to play in any competition not approved by them for English to compete in. Total territorial monopoly is what they currently hold, and, short of governmental action (unlikely as it is the same old boys club) that will not change, ever.
Any player (including academy players) moving outside that system would be a pariah, as would the club, and any sponsor of that club.
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It?s an interesting statement. But surely CH is the current owner, not a former one. Also, if this was anywhere near the truth would it really be Wasps? And then there is the eternal question - where is the cash coming from?
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Surely it beggars belief that any previous owner of Wasps who is still ''with us'' mentally would be willing to get his fingers burnt a second time? It doesn't make sense.
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Surely it beggars belief that any previous owner of Wasps who is still ''with us'' mentally would be willing to get his fingers burnt a second time? It doesn't make sense.
Wasps and sense - hmmm now let me see!
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The RFU and iRFU will do everything they can to prevent territorial incursions by other tournaments and leagues. If your ground is in England, you WILL be subject to the RFU and will NOT be allowed to play in any competition not approved by them for English to compete in. Total territorial monopoly is what they currently hold, and, short of governmental action (unlikely as it is the same old boys club) that will not change, ever.
Any player (including academy players) moving outside that system would be a pariah, as would the club, and any sponsor of that club.
Does that not constitute a restriction of trade?
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Any player (including academy players) moving outside that system would be a pariah, as would the club, and any sponsor of that club.
That sounds like the old Union vs League days, that didn't work out to well in the end.
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The RFU and iRFU will do everything they can to prevent territorial incursions by other tournaments and leagues. If your ground is in England, you WILL be subject to the RFU and will NOT be allowed to play in any competition not approved by them for English to compete in. Total territorial monopoly is what they currently hold, and, short of governmental action (unlikely as it is the same old boys club) that will not change, ever.
Any player (including academy players) moving outside that system would be a pariah, as would the club, and any sponsor of that club.
Does that not constitute a restriction of trade?
Don't think so. There is no right to be considered for international honours, otherwise the courts would be overflowing with ambulance-chasing contingency fee lawyers representing third-rate players.
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The RFU and iRFU will do everything they can to prevent territorial incursions by other tournaments and leagues. If your ground is in England, you WILL be subject to the RFU and will NOT be allowed to play in any competition not approved by them for English to compete in. Total territorial monopoly is what they currently hold, and, short of governmental action (unlikely as it is the same old boys club) that will not change, ever.
Any player (including academy players) moving outside that system would be a pariah, as would the club, and any sponsor of that club.
Does that not constitute a restriction of trade?
Don't think so. There is no right to be considered for international honours, otherwise the courts would be overflowing with ambulance-chasing contingency fee lawyers representing third-rate players.
I don't think NWW's point was about being selected for international honours, rather the need for rugby in England to be sanctioned by the RFU, in a similar vein to how boxing is sanctioned by a body be it IBF, WBC, WBO, etc.
Was there any gauge of a reaction from the RFU to the possibility of Ealing joining the URC which was rumoured earlier this year?
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Another twist?
BREAKING: Worcester Warriors rugby club has ANOTHER new owner 🏉
Chris Holland, who?s already a Director at Wasps, now owns a 97% share of Atlas Worcester Warriors, through a family company, Loxwood Holdings.
https://x.com/bbchw/status/1703801473870540998?s=46
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Worcester Wasps anyone?
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Another twist?
BREAKING: Worcester Warriors rugby club has ANOTHER new owner 🏉
Chris Holland, who?s already a Director at Wasps, now owns a 97% share of Atlas Worcester Warriors, through a family company, Loxwood Holdings.
https://x.com/bbchw/status/1703801473870540998?s=46
Not a surprise given the loan to the happy duo.
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Does that mean he now owns the stadium?
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Does that mean he now owns the stadium?
Apparently.
So now owns 2 of the 3 bust clubs.
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Just one more to complete the set...
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Can one person own two ex-clubs?
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OMG. Lost in wonder. Speechless.
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Does that mean he now owns the stadium?
Apparently.
So now owns 2 of the 3 bust clubs.
Almost like that is exactly what some of us predicted was his endgame when he made the deal for Wasps to play at sixways.
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But I would be very likely to go to see anyone (ANYONE at all) if (big ''if'') rugby came back to Wuss.
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Can one person own two ex-clubs?
While they are "ex" there should be no problem. Kind of owning something that doesn't exist.
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Statement from Chris Holland via BBC Hereford & Worcester:
Sixways & Worcester Warriors
As previously reported Loxwood Holdings provided a loan to Atlas Worcester Warriors Limited (AWW) at the beginning of May 2023, solely for the purposes of securing an option to lease Sixways for a possible return of Wasps. That option gave the owners of AWW until the 25th of May 2023 to repay the loan, which was secured as a debenture on the company.
Regrettably AWW have not repaid that loan and therefore their 97% shareholding now rests with Loxwood. Whilst that shareholding controls the interest in the long lease of Sixways as well as the IP, brand and chattels of Worcester Worriers, our only interest remains in the option to lease the stadium for 5 years from May 2024. We will protect the interest in the long lease and the IP, brand, and chattels of Worcester Warriors until a suitably qualified entity is identified. We have no interest whatsoever in the property.
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Most interesting bit there is that he obviously expects us to be playing in some fashion from May 24. In which league??
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Most interesting bit there is that he obviously expects us to be playing in some fashion from May 24. In which league??
Prem Div 2
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Does anyone know Wuss's views on this news?
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How much did Holland loan to Atlas? It was only about ?2 million wasn't it? That's damn cheap for a stadium!
If his only interest is the stadium then maybe he'll be willing to sell the Warriors club, brand and IP on for quite cheap if a supporters group/trust can get organised?
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Does anyone know Wuss's views on this news?
I think that their supporters are much as we are, pretty disheartened and lacking in faith of the future of our much loved clubs. What is a club without its players and ground? Not a lot. Without its supporters, it then becomes nothing. A lot of time has passed, and a lot more will. As it passes, so do the supporters fade and leave.
Better Holland than Jim O'Toole I think is their view. All he gets for his money is the 5 year lease on the stadium though, I think. Not worth a lot. I don't think he gets the freehold.
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I'm not exactly brimming with confidence right now...
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Does anyone know Wuss's views on this news?
Bemused - except Grendel!
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The actual ownership of the stadium seems quite complex. I don't believe this means Holland owns Sixways, just that he owns the option to lease it, I think!
Holland loaned Atlas the money to complete the purchase of the WW holding company which owned the brand, IP etc. He secured that loan against the Lease option for the stadium. Atlas failed to repay the loan, which meant Holland ended up with the shares in the company which owns the WW brand.
The stadium ownership still seems unknown, the DCMS loans were secured against it and it may well not have been sold by the administrators yet.
Holland's aim seems to have been to secure a stadium for Wasp sot play in at some point in the future, although in what context & what form, who knows.
All this is form what I can glean form Warriors site so may not be 100% correct
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Que sera sera.
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Most interesting bit there is that he obviously expects us to be playing in some fashion from May 24. In which league??
Prem Div 2
;D
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As I understand it, Loxwood controls 97% of the company that holds the long lease on the stadium. Since Roy Rogers and Trigger didn't repay CH's ?2 million loan to CH, that long lease (and whatever goes along with it) is his. I'm not sure when the long lease runs from but usually they are expressed to be for 999 years in my experience.
I'm only a beancounter so the above may be a load of dingo's kidneys!
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It is indeed 999 years. I have posted on the WW SN site thread if you want a few more details on the leasehold and freehold.
Not a huge amount of point in repeating, but sum up is watch this space, there is a protective search from Sept 12 on the 999 year leasehold, normally made in expectation of a sale in the next few weeks.
There is also a charge against sport England (i.e. money is owed to them).
Oh, and you won't see any underlease at 5 years on HMLR's radar- the minumum is seven for it it be registered.
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Given that Chris Holland now appears to own what?s left of Warriors as well as what?s left of Wasps, I think the future options have now been whittled down?
1. Wasps (& probably Warriors & Irish) are gone, never to be seen again
2. Wasps re-emerge as a ?Franchise? in ?Prem 2? playing at Sixways, either as part of a merged Wasp/Warriors or as a stand alone club. (this whole prem 1 & 2 idea needs crystallising & communicating asap but with the RFU busy arguing amongst themselves or at the RWC that doesn?t look like its going to happen soon!)
So the question I would ask is, how many people would support such a team, either merged or not?
How ?Wasps? is it really going to be? I guess that would depend on who manages, coaches & plays for it, but you would not expect many ex Wasp players or coaches who are still Prem or Champ quality to want to be involved.
Will just having an ex wasp coach or a few older ex players in the squad make it Wasps enough?
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It would be good if there were a few ex-Wasps involved somehow, but it (any squad members, backroom support etc) would presumably mean the whole caboodle starting from the ground upwards, which in turn would mean a totally new squad from all over everywhere. A completely new entity. Would that matter? In my view, no, Why should it? It would be a completely new club anyway. What you would need (apart from the obvious) is one helluva good talent spotter. It would be a completely fresh start. Allez Wussps.
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It would be great to get someone of Joe Launchbury?s standing involved to help with the building of the Wasps ethos, but not essential for my support.
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I echo above, it would be great if a resurrected Wasps Rugby club had strong links to ex players and coaches but it wouldn't stop me being a supporter if all the staff were new and had no previous links to the club.
I'd be far happier if it wasn't a merged club though.
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It has always been my understanding that working alongside Chris Holland, there has been the likes of Scrivs, Kenny Logan, Chris Braithwaite and others with the potential for negotiating different levels of investment depending on what the RFU "allow" or the "powers that be" come up with in terms of "Prem 2" and pathways within the league structures going forward.
Understandably no one will commit any significant levels of longer term investment into a new club/company until they know what this looks like for their survival or progression.
The current RFU debacle and some negative feeling around some "issues" with the World Cup doesn't exactly make that position any easier right now.
There is also the "legal cloud" of the concussion issues surrounding the whole game as well that could potentially cause some "institutional" investors/sponsors to be very cautious about getting involved at this moment in time until that starts to get "resolved" in some way?
All in all, lots of things to start getting resolved before we will have a team to watch and cheer on once again, but hopefully we will get there.
Given the time that has elapsed, I'd rather wait and be as sure as possible that there is a good future to look forward to for everyone concerned be they investors, sponsors, fans, players, coaches and all the support staff.
I have really missed the week to week involvement and excitement with Wasps, but sort of got used to it now and can't find any interest or feeling with any other games really.
I'm pleased to read about our "old" players and coaches doing well, but still hope that we will come back and I can hopefully get that enjoyment (and frustration!) back again as it was great to be a part of it. :)
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Speaking for myself, and not criticising anyone else, I am not sure how I am going to feel if a rugby club emerges under a Wasps banner that has nothing to do with the old Wasps. Is the name & the badge enough to make that team "Wasps"?
I really don't know
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The way I look at it, none of the players and coaches who were at the club when I started following them at Adam?s Park were there when they folded last year, but I was still a supporter, so what?s the difference? I said, for me it?s about ethos and much as I appreciate former Wasps stars being involved at the management level I?d still like a bit of continuity on the training ground if not the pitch but not a deal breaker.
If after a couple of years it?s obvious the ethos hasn?t continued then I?d probably just being interested.
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If (big 'if') we did become reborn at Sixways I feel, maybe naively, that it has to include Wuss in part. It was, after all, their home, and understandably they may well resent anyone else who would be seen as intruders. The support of local people is vital in so many respects. It was/is their ground. Wuss supporters and ex-personnel should be included. After all this time I have come to think that it has to be an amalgam of the two (three?) Clubs, working together in unity - which could perhaps be extremely difficult and lengthy but hopefully not impossible. Time alone would tell.
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Speaking for myself, and not criticising anyone else, I am not sure how I am going to feel if a rugby club emerges under a Wasps banner that has nothing to do with the old Wasps. Is the name & the badge enough to make that team "Wasps"?
I really don't know
There's a similar uncertainty in our household about Wasps coming back without a clear connection to our time as Supporters.
Semi-related to this, we're looking at what Pau games could we get to and combine with a weekend away somewhere to watch ex-Wasps players play. Treviso is an obvious candidate, Toulouse is probably difficult to get Home Game tickets for. Figuring Pau might be a good one to target as well.
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Don't know.
Honestly, Wasps should really be in a permanent home. That for me is key. Not sure I want to be part of supporting an entity that fails to punish cheating like the prem.
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If (big 'if') we did become reborn at Sixways I feel, maybe naively, that it has to include Wuss in part. It was, after all, their home, and understandably they may well resent anyone else who would be seen as intruders. The support of local people is vital in so many respects. It was/is their ground. Wuss supporters and ex-personnel should be included. After all this time I have come to think that it has to be an amalgam of the two (three?) Clubs, working together in unity - which could perhaps be extremely difficult and lengthy but hopefully not impossible. Time alone would tell.
Good point. I have a very good friend who lives there part time and his family were big Wuss fans, although he?s a Sale supporter. I was at our last game there with home and met his uncle and cousin who?ve been long time STH and they were distraught at what they were going through. I?m not convinced there?d turn up to watch Wasps.
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Is it possible for 2 clubs to play at the same ground in the same competition? Could be that both Wasps and WW play at sixways in Prem 2. The pitch would take a beating
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Is it possible for 2 clubs to play at the same ground in the same competition? Could be that both Wasps and WW play at sixways in Prem 2. The pitch would take a beating
Thought the pitch was artificial? So not a problem. Guess it would come down to attendances/ economics if risking paying 2 lots of salaries or one
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Is it possible for 2 clubs to play at the same ground in the same competition? Could be that both Wasps and WW play at sixways in Prem 2. The pitch would take a beating
It happens in the Championship: London Scottish and Richmond share a ground.
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I have it on relatively good authority that the sixways lease is only for the remainder of the 5 years that were negotiated by thr Wuss team when they were trying to resurrect the team. So not actually very long at all.
He may well be in the process of acquiring the actual long lease though, or maybe even trying for the freehold.
Who knows?
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VV,
As per my post above, I think CH already controls (97%) of the company that holds the long lease. 999 years is very akin to a freehold.
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Is it possible for 2 clubs to play at the same ground in the same competition? Could be that both Wasps and WW play at sixways in Prem 2. The pitch would take a beating
Thought the pitch was artificial? So not a problem. Guess it would come down to attendances/ economics if risking paying 2 lots of salaries or one
Surely it would be possible to have a single organisational entity to run the ground and general admin while having 2 separate playing teams with specific admin, allowing some cost and revenue sharing.
In that scenario CH could sell off the Warriors team interest initially, to increase funding. If he wants to build a new ground and independent identity for Wasps later he's then in a position to sell the interest in the ground to the Warriors owner.
I thought that was roughly his plan previously, which is why he made the loan to Atlas.
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VV,
As per my post above, I think CH already controls (97%) of the company that holds the long lease. 999 years is very akin to a freehold.
I realise that, but I'm not convinced that is indeed what he has.
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VV,
I'd be interested to know why you are sceptical about the long lease being controlled by CH
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VV,
I'd be interested to know why you are sceptical about the long lease being controlled by CH
Because I was told by someone who may have reason to know.
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OK. Fair enough.
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I've just been reading the Wuss thread. They all sound as tired and disillusioned as we are.
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I've just been reading the Wuss thread. They all sound as tired and disillusioned as we are.
Yes, Irish fans the same. You add the fan bases of those 3 clubs together and you get a LOT of disillusioned, possibly ex, rugby fans.
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If you believe Holland he?s only interested in the 5 year option anyway. Which points to another option being pursued beyond that. If you believe him.
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Actually you just don't know who to believe. All sorts of machinations are being undertaken (see the Telegraph article below) by all level of parties. Anything else and it would be fun to sit aside and watch.
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Seeing a (very) few messages about good news incoming in the next few weeks.
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Seeing a (very) few messages about good news incoming in the next few weeks.
We seem to have heard this many, many times over the last year of so, still waiting for it hopefully!
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Jam tomorrow ..........
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Where are you seeing these messages that good news is coming?
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He's been on the gin again.
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Where are you seeing these messages that good news is coming?
Various X threads and a FB thread - I do not have the exact places mainly because I do not subscribe to any SM. I viewed them yesterday on a third party phone.
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He's been on the gin again.
I hate Gin! Waste of alcohol.
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Wise man!
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Where are you seeing these messages that good news is coming?
The comment was attributed to Scrivener by someone who was speaking to him at an event at the weekend.
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Where are you seeing these messages that good news is coming?
The comment was attributed to Scrivener by someone who was speaking to him at an event at the weekend.
Backed up by someone who quoted Dallaglio saying something similar recently too.
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Yep what I saw. Didn't want to put names to comments just yet.
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Where are you seeing these messages that good news is coming?
Horoscopes??? ;D
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?Tealeaves
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Backed up by someone who quoted Dallaglio saying something similar recently too.
we've heard that before as well.....
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Backed up by someone who quoted Dallaglio saying something similar recently too.
we've heard that before as well.....
Better to hear it than not(hing).
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Yes, a crumb of news would be better than the current updates via companies house director shuffling.
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Yes, a crumb of news would be better than the current updates via companies house director shuffling.
On that note not I'm not sure if it was picked up on here that Christopher Holland incorporated Halo24 this month, following on from Halo22 and Halo23.
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Yes, a crumb of news would be better than the current updates via companies house director shuffling.
Somebody put it on DW
On that note not I'm not sure if it was picked up on here that Christopher Holland incorporated Halo24 this month, following on from Halo22 and Halo23.
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As The Doors once sang:
Halo, I love you let me jump in your game.
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As The Doors once sang:
Halo, I love you let me jump in your game.
Yes but look what happened to Jim Morris on.
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I was watching a programme about companies that are being registered at addresses that know nothing about them.
How about registering Halo25 at StoneX stadium and Halo26 at Welford Road - that'll stir up a load of comments on the various chat boards!
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I was watching a programme about companies that are being registered at addresses that know nothing about them.
How about registering Halo25 at StoneX stadium and Halo26 at Welford Road - that'll stir up a load of comments on the various chat boards!
😃👌
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OK bite my head off! But just seen a post (as before viewed on a SM phone) which has indicated Wasps have funding approved by the RFU and will start in Prem 2. Nothing more than that.
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OK bite my head off! But just seen a post (as before viewed on a SM phone) which has indicated Wasps have funding approved by the RFU and will start in Prem 2. Nothing more than that.
No doubting your sincerity or the sincerity, Neils.
I am sceptical about the RFU and Prem 2 starting, though, for no other reason than I have lost faith in them.
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OK bite my head off! But just seen a post (as before viewed on a SM phone) which has indicated Wasps have funding approved by the RFU and will start in Prem 2. Nothing more than that.
No doubting your sincerity or the sincerity, Neils.
I am sceptical about the RFU and Prem 2 starting, though, for no other reason than I have lost faith in them.
With that I cannot disagree.
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OK bite my head off! But just seen a post (as before viewed on a SM phone) which has indicated Wasps have funding approved by the RFU and will start in Prem 2. Nothing more than that.
Good news. And surely has to be based at Worcester.
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OK bite my head off! But just seen a post (as before viewed on a SM phone) which has indicated Wasps have funding approved by the RFU and will start in Prem 2. Nothing more than that.
Good news. And surely has to be based at Worcester.
You would think so.
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I'm sitting on the fence, and it's extremely uncomfortable. Just wishin' and hopin'.
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Talking to a few last night - IF (big if) the ghostly RFU Div 2 does arise and is by invitation who would sign up?
We felt very few of the existing Championship would put their names forward.
Wasps as a Franchise, maybe WW and possibly LI if there is anyone with the money left. Ealing but with Jersey gone we could only think Coventry with the money and desire. Possibly Scottish if the rumoured funding is available. Cornish Pirates are considering going part time but seem to have glimmers on their new stadium. Not sure the rest have a desire, funding or a stadium (last applies to Ealing too.
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I'd like to think the clubs in Prem 2 would not be forced to have a minimum 10K capacity to compete
That would scupper the whole idea in one fell swoop.
Hopefully investment in the clubs would follow once TV rights have been secured.
As for desire, who knows?
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Talking to a few last night - IF (big if) the ghostly RFU Div 2 does arise and is by invitation who would sign up?
We felt very few of the existing Championship would put their names forward.
Wasps as a Franchise, maybe WW and possibly LI if there is anyone with the money left. Ealing but with Jersey gone we could only think Coventry with the money and desire. Possibly Scottish if the rumoured funding is available. Cornish Pirates are considering going part time but seem to have glimmers on their new stadium. Not sure the rest have a desire, funding or a stadium (last applies to Ealing too.
I do hope that PRL/RFU follow the same ground capacity rules as for the, more popular, Premier League football grounds: The ground must have a certified capacity of at least 5,000 which includes 2,000 seats.
Of course of they still insist on current rules staying then only Doncaster, as it stands will be allowed in the new Premiership 2, as they have planning permission to increase capacity, and they have recruited wisely for this season.
Not so sure about L. Scottish, as they have to share with Richmond, and, like the majority of Championship clubs are semi-pro. The AAthletic ground only has a capacity of about 4000.
Same capacity applies to Cornish Pirates, but as stated can't see a semi-pro club being able to compete.
Coventry currently has a capacily of 4000, and has the ability to compete ok, but can't see them being able to increase capacity by more than 1000.
Ealing could easily compete, but can't see them being able to increase capacity much above 1000 more than the current 5,000 (2,200 seats). However they have put-in a few more, temporary, seats this season (a couple of hundred) and do have the space for more using temporary stands. However those would be required to be moved on non-matchdays, as they would interfere with the othe pitches on site.
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I expect any Prem 2 would need to be centrally funded, at least to a point, otherwise it probably won't happen.
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For this to work the existing Prem teams need to be accept a short term financial hit in exchange for the long term improvement. It's been done before in NRL and NFL but whether the current cartel would be willing to accept it is another thing.
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Seeing a (very) few messages about good news incoming in the next few weeks.
We are now into week 4 since Neils wrote this. Anyone heard any good news yet?
Given that England are still in the RWC (fairly surprisingly!) it may have to wait till after the coming weekend...
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Seeing a (very) few messages about good news incoming in the next few weeks.
We are now into week 4 since Neils wrote this. Anyone heard any good news yet?
Given that England are still in the RWC (fairly surprisingly!) it may have to wait till after the coming weekend...
RFU have stated December
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I wouldn't be surprised if we were exploring joining the URC as an option and jettisoning RFU ties, not sure there are even any given we have no team, no league etc... and look to offer to take the spot of one of the Welsh Teams given their own financial struggles.
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I wouldn't be surprised if we were exploring joining the URC as an option and jettisoning RFU ties, not sure there are even any given we have no team, no league etc... and look to offer to take the spot of one of the Welsh Teams given their own financial struggles.
This was mooted a while ago after a Wasps Press Release. Not sure how realistic it is but interesting selection of clubs to play.
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If any Wasps mk2 was an English based rugby club it would fall under the RFU. So if they wanted to play in a different league it would need RFU approval. It would also need URC approval, which would I assume need all the constituent RFU's to agree. Can't honestly see either happening.
We seem to have equated "good news" with Prem 2. I can understand why, but do we have anything concrete to base that on?
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1 year to the day since the club went in to administration. Feels like a lifetime ago.
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https://twitter.com/WaspsRugby/status/1714281764603212202?t=_zrnZ8QGvBga_fL1wpxh7A&s=19
https://www.wasps.co.uk/club-announcements/
An update from the club, fingers crossed.
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Glad to read that, it probably says all that it can at the moment.
Assume the video is clips of the promised documentary.
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Glad to read that, it probably says all that it can at the moment.
Assume the video is clips of the promised documentary.
Yeah very much so. Mix of Kenny and Lol talking. Some reference to coaches and players lined up
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We have made substantial progress in the establishment of a permanent home. Later this month we will make a further announcement which will detail the now advanced progress toward our new ground.
Interesting wording here. Permanent being the important word. That wording would not fit Sixways you would think?
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Perhaps there may be some tie in with the new stadium being built in Oxford? Purely speculative on my part mind you..
Great to have some comms though. Can't believe it has been a year..
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do you mean this one:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-67052207 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-67052207)
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do you mean this one:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-67052207 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-67052207)
That's the one! Wouldn't be a terrible location and perhaps completion ties in with the rumoured Sixways 5 year lease.
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do you mean this one:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-67052207 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-67052207)
That's the one! Wouldn't be a terrible location and perhaps completion ties in with the rumoured Sixways 5 year lease.
Only 9 minutes drive from the Wasps Office.
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There is also the soon to be free Kassam. Not too much information about what the owners want to do with it. Also can't remember how much surrounding land there might be for development.
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The little snippet there is the Kenny bit at the end.
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There is also the soon to be free Kassam. Not too much information about what the owners want to do with it. Also can't remember how much surrounding land there might be for development.
Not sure about the Kassam. who, even though he sold the Club, he owns the stadium and surrounding area. Appears he wants to knock it down and develop more "Leisure" facilities.
Also a bit of a wind tunnel effect because of the "missing" stand
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Wasps: Former Premiership club aim to return at 'highest level possible'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67137505
Wasps want to reform as a club "at the highest level possible" but may need to wait until the 2025-26 season to do so, says chairman Christopher Holland
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https://www.wasps.co.uk/club-announcements/
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Glad of the update. The competition entity bit reads a bit oddly. And 25-26 as the backstop feels a long way away. But the news on the stadium sounds very good
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"We are never too old to set another goal or to dream a new dream.? :)
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I hope I've got another couple of years left, as I want to see this happen - or at least begin to. I admire the determination and stick-ability involved.
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There is one big obstacle - the RFU.
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O gawd ......... for a short happy time I forgot about Them.
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Just in case anyone missed it, here is the link to The Pledge. The more who sign it the better.:
https://pledge.wasps.co.uk/?utm_source=web&utm_medium=pr&utm_campaign=WaspsPledge
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We 2 have done that. Looking ahead and with many ifs/buts/maybes/etc and (very sadly) given that the Worcester ladies rugby has had to go into administration I'm wondering what on earth is going to happen to Sixways. So very very sad.
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Just in case anyone missed it, here is the link to The Pledge. The more who sign it the better.:
https://pledge.wasps.co.uk/?utm_source=web&utm_medium=pr&utm_campaign=WaspsPledge
And if you have a family of Wasps fans get everyone to do it individually!
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We 2 have done that. Looking ahead and with many ifs/buts/maybes/etc and (very sadly) given that the Worcester ladies rugby has had to go into administration I'm wondering what on earth is going to happen to Sixways. So very very sad.
Maybe take up the plastic and turn into allotments (big waiting lists it appears).
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There is also the soon to be free Kassam. Not too much information about what the owners want to do with it. Also can't remember how much surrounding land there might be for development.
Not sure about the Kassam. who, even though he sold the Club, he owns the stadium and surrounding area. Appears he wants to knock it down and develop more "Leisure" facilities.
Also a bit of a wind tunnel effect because of the "missing" stand
Oxford are in a tough place (as many clubs are). The old stadium is not fit for purpose hemmed in as it now is, and certainly not for rugby. Take a trip there and see for yourself (it isn't so far for me and I have been there a few times for work). But, despite many proposals, the roundball team have no alternative ground lined up. You would think the local council would help, but that does not appear to be the case, forcing them to look just outside the city boundaries. Unfortunately, a lot of the greenspace around Oxford is not available for any change of use, and their only hope is to the North of the city, but I cannot see that coming off.
I think that a Wasps fan(maybe?) (and maybe also he is on here) is senior (was one of the secretaries) for the Leamington 'Brakes' roundball team (showing how old I am, I used to watch them when I worked at Automotive Products (eventually becoming a manager in the Lockheed brakes division), when the club was officially still the 'works' team (playing at the Windmill). He is adamant that the proposed Community Stadium in Warwick is just for (only to be used by) the footie team. But, despite much effect by WDC, no development partner has been found (i.e., no-one wants to pay for it). WDC have remained VERY tight lipped about it, with no progress reported. The fact is, most of the rest of the site is now in various stages of progress (some even completed). The footie team have no money, no surprise there, and time is running out for them at their current ground.
Would Wasps play at Sixways? I really hope not. I would be loath to go there, it would not feel right. Given the timescales involved, Wasps must be looking at an existing stadium very short term, and medium term must be looking at a new ground and site that already has outline planning consent and the support for the local council. They also mention alternate income streams, which also points to a new site.
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I'm convinced that the logical location for a new stadium is Bicester on the Chiltern Line. It has 2 stations. Bicester North is 1 fast stop from High Wycombe, 2 from London Marylebone and 2 from Leamington. Sudbury Hill is on the same line and it also links to Birmingham. 1 hour with 1 change from Coventry too. Bicester Village is 3 short stops from Oxford. So ideally placed for all Wasps associated locations.
I think Sixways is future proof insurance for having a ground fit for the Prem. It will allow a separate entity to be created as Worcester Warriors, and the ground can be sold off to them when the new one is ready. Warriors and Wasps can share the ground and costs initially whist getting the respective teams into good shape.
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There is also the soon to be free Kassam. Not too much information about what the owners want to do with it. Also can't remember how much surrounding land there might be for development.
Not sure about the Kassam. who, even though he sold the Club, he owns the stadium and surrounding area. Appears he wants to knock it down and develop more "Leisure" facilities.
Also a bit of a wind tunnel effect because of the "missing" stand
Oxford are in a tough place (as many clubs are). The old stadium is not fit for purpose hemmed in as it now is, and certainly not for rugby. Take a trip there and see for yourself (it isn't so far for me and I have been there a few times for work). But, despite many proposals, the roundball team have no alternative ground lined up. You would think the local council would help, but that does not appear to be the case, forcing them to look just outside the city boundaries. Unfortunately, a lot of the greenspace around Oxford is not available for any change of use, and their only hope is to the North of the city, but I cannot see that coming off.
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A long time ago I used to play golf at a club just outside Oxford but covered by Oxford Council. A regular playing partner was a huge Oxford fan and became General Manager for a short time. He said one of the biggest problems was the usual Town v Gown conflict and the snobbishness of the Gown towards football, with the Gown having a disproportionate sway with the council.
Things may have changed, but I doubt it, but I also note that Oxford council is pushing the 15 minute city concept very hard. Irrespective of the politics of that, its not conducive to building and operating a football stadium.
I can't see there being the opportunity for the sort of partnership thinking that will be needed for building a new stadium.
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The wording of the statement sounds like there will be a future "permanent" stadium in plan, somewhere. But as well all know, if that is not well into a planning process already it wont be available for 2-3 years at best. So, in order to be able to play either next season, or the one after, there must also be some kind of plan for a temporary home. With Hollands ownership of the company which holds the right to a lease at Sixways, it would be very likely that either:
1. Wasps play at Sixways until a permanent home is built
2. Sixways is that permanent home.
Option 1 would seem reasonably sensible & matches some of the noises we've heard, although I can see some local hostility. Warriors would need to be resurrected somehow (potentially as part of prem 2 etc) and maybe the ground shared?
And of course all this ignores the question of what competition Wasps v2 would be playing in, which as we know is, to a major extent out of Wasps hands.
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Well, a welcome update which tells us nothing concrete other than "we're still working on it".
For which I am grateful of course - that people are committed and real time and effort (and presumably cold, hard cash) is being expended on something many of us may have thought was dead.
Asks more questions than it answers, possibly. When? Where? Who?
It's a chink of light at the end of a particularly dark, bleak tunnel though.