Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: wycombewasp on November 06, 2022, 04:11:33 PM
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Is no one going to comet on England's rubbish performance
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Boffelli my boy scored 25 of the 30 points.
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As the topic has opened, I'll comment.
Didn't watch the game but saw the result, which made me very happy. That's how disconnected I feel.
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Is the title missing an F.
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Watched it. Apart from that one moment of magic from Van poortvliet it was a pretty horrid affair.
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More depressing tactics from Jones. Quoted as saying England were bringing the power game. The likes of Vunipola, Tuilagi, Cockanasinga, Nowell trundling into contact achieving the sum total of nothing. Couple that with more kicking from Youngs and the compulsory lock in the back row. No attacking craft at all. Loads of indiscipline and lots of silly screaming. As usual a media frenzy around Tuilagi and he did squat. Salt in the wounds Willis gets 4 minutes. Was actually pleased Argentina won.
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My reaction is that I am not surprised that I am not surprised.
Eddie Jones has long overstayed his time with us, he has access to some of the greatest times with players and the best facilities. Yet time and time again since 2019 he provides dross.
He put a team on the field that looked limited and they played a very limited game plan. Worst of all they looked like 15 individuals rather than a coherent team. Not being able to string a few phases together, passes to no-one and completely bereft of shape.
Frankly when your hear Jones stating -again- that we are not playing everything we can do because he wants to surprise others at the World Cup, then you know we are in trouble. New Zealand do not do that, they do their best every time and then they try new things and layer it on. Surprises at the World Cup mean that we will not know if it works or not, and if it does not it’s too late.
Eddie Jones and ourselves need to go into every test giving everything to win by using everything at our disposal. Treating every test, tournament, World Cup and series with equal importance is THE only way, not saving it for a World Cup.
Please Eddie go now. I would rather lose with a head coach who really gets it and a team desperate to win everything than continue with a coach who has managed to create a disconnect between the team and the fans and creates performances like that.
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+1
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Plus 1
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More depressing tactics from Jones. Quoted as saying England were bringing the power game. The likes of Vunipola, Tuilagi, Cockanasinga, Nowell trundling into contact achieving the sum total of nothing. Couple that with more kicking from Youngs and the compulsory lock in the back row. No attacking craft at all. Loads of indiscipline and lots of silly screaming. As usual a media frenzy around Tuilagi and he did squat. Salt in the wounds Willis gets 4 minutes. Was actually pleased Argentina won.
Shugs - when I saw the selection not only was it seemingly the most fragile backline - it seemed to have no pace or innovation. Ditto a SR at 6. I'm please too. Two years of playing like twats in the 6Ns and pissing on good players like Ollie Lawrence amongst many suggests this England has few prospects. Can always win a game via a power pack - but glad that a focused Argentina won to highlight what many have been suggesting for some time...
As the BBC man on the spot noted: Argentina shocked an 80,000-strong Twickenham crowd with an audacious and deserved victory
Audacious isn't exactly a term I'd use for England...
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I put the game on while I was doing some ironing and it was about half way through the first half. Jeez, the ironing was more exciting.
I stuck with it but was just about to give up when Argentina lit up the game with an excellent try, proving that rugby could be played in those conditions. So I stuck with it and then we had the interminable replays over Argentina's second try. For Pete's Sake, its a friendly not the World Cup final, making a sodding decision.
As we'd arranged to meet some friends in the pub I had to leave after that. The pub's only 2 minutes away and when we got there the bar was full of people watching the game, so we sat elsewhere. This is not a rugby area so they were mostly sports fans who were watching because they wanted the shared experience of an England win and an exciting game.
There was not one collective cheer or even groan during the rest of the game. When I went to the bar most people weren't engaged with the TV. They weren't interested in the nuances of kick tennis of of big men running in to contact, they wanted to watch exciting rugby and they weren't getting it. It won't register in Twickenham, but they are not selling the game to a new audience and its hard for people like me who've championed the game in non Rugby areas to get people interested.
My friend is Welsh and he said he'd been watching the game and that he'd never seen Twickenham so flat.
I'm volunteering next week and won't be missing the game.
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Wheelchair League International was much more fun.
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I cannot recall a previous head coach that has alienated and dissociated so many people from their team. Lancaster may have made a huge mistake at the 2015 World Cup, however he really got us all involved and invested in our national side. I know he ballsed up the tactics for the World Cup, but I wonder whether we should of let him make amends rather than this!
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Completely forgot there was rugby.
Doesn't sound like I missed much.
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I cannot recall a previous head coach that has alienated and dissociated so many people from their team. Lancaster may have made a huge mistake at the 2015 World Cup, however he really got us all involved and invested in our national side. I know he ballsed up the tactics for the World Cup, but I wonder whether we should of let him make amends rather than this!
You're right, especially how SL appears to have done very well at Leinster and will become Racing 92's DOR next season on a 4 year deal.
It makes me wonder (now I'm thinking of it) whether some decisions were taken out of SL's hands - just look at how Sam Burgess was drafted into an England rugby union World Cup squad (a WC at home as well) within a few months of playing rugby union. Surely that was down to some RFU internal pressure to get him in?
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Completely forgot there was rugby.
Doesn't sound like I missed much.
Wheelchair Rugby League eas superb. Next up on Wednesday
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Jones is an arsehole.
Power is bullshit, everyone has power and SA have more.
Playing rugby is required. We should have been playing with Wade on the wing for five years, instead we are scrabbling around with Joe C. Guys like Ben Youngs at SH? Says it all and when push comes to shove, Eddie will not learn.
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Ben Youngs is ponderously slow, and indeed his constant need to wind up his pass and take 1-2 steps is not good enough at international level.
Joe C is a young man, who needs to develop in the premiership as he currently has to underdeveloped a game to step up....However Jones see's big and fast(ish) and thats enough.
Nowell is really struggling, yet Jones ignores form.
Jones also needs to make a decision on either Farrell or Smith as they are not working together. My gut would be if you remove Farrell you will realise the potential of Smith. However we are unlikely to see this as Farrell fits the Jones model of pragmatism.
I admit though I have NEVER seen such a team so limited, so prescribed and yet so lacking in ideas. Compare and contrast with Ireland who know exactly what each other is doing, back one another, yet can play multiple phases with a huge understanding with one another. We are so far from this it is unreal. However equally it is very clear why its happening because Eddie Jones is so obsessed at finding a new way, and new edge that he tries everything. He muddies the waters, and yet equally is not against heading off on a sojourn. There is no clarity, no understanding and no ambition.
I think when Jones goes, and the risk of speaking against him lessons we will find things were not the rosy picture the players paint.
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Wanted England to lose so I am happy. We will be lucky if we et to the QF's in the RWC.
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Haven’t watched it yet and probably now won’t bother.
What a depressing time to be an England and Wasps rugby fan.
Really enjoyed watching France again, as well as keeping tabs on Biyi, Wade, Brookes and hopefully Brad soon in the French league, that’s where I see my rugby viewing heading.
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I'm sure we've all seen this before.....It rings truer and truer as time passes
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/108275798/new-book-reveals-how-eddie-jones-loses-assistant-coaches-and-dressing-rooms
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I didn't bother with it and didn't miss anything by the looks of it.
The most telling thing is his team selection. All the talk about rebuilding and evolving with a younger, refreshed team for the next world cup and he's still picking near on the same side that lost the final last time. What a waste of four years..
Jones hasn't got any new ideas and seems blind to the fact that by sticking with his aging, failing group England are falling further and further behind the top sides. It's like a slow car crash and as usual the RFU are oblivious to the malaise and won't wake up until it's too late.
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I'm sure we've all seen this before.....It rings truer and truer as time passes
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/108275798/new-book-reveals-how-eddie-jones-loses-assistant-coaches-and-dressing-rooms
I would love to know how many coaches and back room staff he’s churned through during his tenure.
Shame he doesn’t get through a similar amount of scrum halves
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Eddie, just Eddie. The same old. We have a high win pc because of who we play- when it comes to a team by team basis, his record is not the best in terms of tier one matches. Only a total fool thinks we can win with players out of position, powering out way to the WC. SA didn't power their way to a WC. They had a realatively easy route, only had to beat Wales really after losing in the group stages, and then met England in the final, whom they over powered- it wasn't supposed to be a blueprint. There were better teams in the event. Every top tier team in the world would have beaten England- Woodward had it correct in that we prepared for the final in a way that was custom made to not win it. Expect a poor 6n, and an England team in the semi or final of the WC, and no trophy at the end.
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I know that my interest in the game has diminished of late but have they changed the way the game is scored?
Is it now like billiards, do you get points when your players canon into the opposition?
It's bad enough that watching Wasps isn't an option, it's a whole lot worse when this is the alternative.
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What I just can’t fathom are the following:
Vunipola is a liability at scrum time and we have three or four better.
Our second row has to be Itoje and Clarke.
If Willis can’t get a game in the back row there’s something really amiss and much as I loathe his screaming Earl has to be in there.
Backs wise it’s patently obvious we have 4-5 better scrum halves than Youngs.
Farrell at 12 has stymied any attacking intent we might have had for years.
I keep reading how good Tuilagi is but never see him do anything.
I can’t think of a less mobile and inventive pair of wingers than Cockanasinga and Nowell.
Outside of that you’ve got Daly who is now in a rich vein of form and not picked but got continually picked when out of form (coincidence he’s hit form now not with England?). Lawrence is tearing it up at Bath. Radwan, Roebuck, Hassell-Collins, would add the pace we’re desperately short of. You could go on and on. Many England fans now want them to lose to facilitate getting rid of Jones. He should be presiding over a top team but he’s simply ruined it.
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Good post, Shugs.
I keep reading how good Tuilagi is but never see him do anything.
From the 50 mins or so I watched he made one thundering tackle that had the commentators in raptures and banging on about how powerful he is from a standing start. We never seem him do something magical, only ever crashing in to players. That seems to be Eddie's benchmark for selection: big, strong and lacking rugby brains. I suppose it means they'll do as they're told but it also accounts for their lack of ability to come up with a Plan B on the pitch.
Outside of that you’ve got Daly who is now in a rich vein of form and not picked but got continually picked when out of form (coincidence he’s hit form now not with England?).
How many times have we complained about players being on form and then losing it after they've been to an England camp? Correlation doesn't mean causation, but it does mean that at some point you should start investigating.
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Have to query what Gleeson is adding to the party. I was unconvinced by his time at Wasps, the attack seemed less fluent and stagnated I thought. Was surprised with Eddie came calling.
Although Eddie has been in post for a long time, his coaching staff haven't - the churn has been relentless. Eddie is a notoriously hard bugger to work for (says so in his own book), but long term that may be proving counter-productive.
Some of our best attacking play came in SA a couple of years back with Scott Wisemantel as attack coach (although we did lose the series).
Anyway - agree with all the other posters: turgid, stodgy affair. I don't buy the "keep cards close to our chest" crap.
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EJ really only wants players who do exactly what he tells them to, when he tells them. Ben Youngs and others are simply very good at doing that. Alternatives want to mix it up a bit, and EJ does not want that.
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EJ doesn't want players who think for themselves. If he finds that they do - out they go.
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Tuilagi was/is a uniquely gifted athlete. Power and pace pretty much unmatched in English rugby.
He's a very difficult to stop sightly blunt instrument who will cause defences problems under the right circumstances.
He's not a scalpel to cut defences apart without assistance.
Put him directly outside Smith so that he can choose when to feed him or when to use him as a dummy and Manu may be a different beast.
Put him outside farrell so that the ball is just fed on predictably and modern defences will bring him down every time
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Tuilagi was/is a uniquely gifted athlete. Power and pace pretty much unmatched in English rugby.
He's a very difficult to stop sightly blunt instrument who will cause defences problems under the right circumstances.
He's not a scalpel to cut defences apart without assistance.
Put him directly outside Smith so that he can choose when to feed him or when to use him as a dummy and Manu may be a different beast.
Put him outside farrell so that the ball is just fed on predictably and modern defences will bring him down every time
This being when he’s not injured of course.
Given the amount of times he’s out injured only a fool like Jones would seriously factor Tuilagi into any longer term plans.
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The prospect of anyone outside Smith other than Farrell is more than extremely remote.
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When i saw the selection what struck me was a) the fragile nature of so many players and b) the lack of pace. The problem created by England is that they've managed to not select the sort of player that modern rugby needs and have reverted to thinking they can run through walls. It's in part why they lost at Murrayfield last 6Ns - they kept running unimaginably straight towards a team happy to tackle and compete at breakdown.
The headlines that "May and George" ready to lift England suggest how badly they have lost their way. A slow back three when you have (just as examples) Malins, Radwan and Thorley, 13's such as Lawrence and Marchant and a myriad of 9's and Ford. Problems at 12, but not insurmountable and then playing a pack that doesn't seem to know whether it's coming or going and playing a SR at 6 just lacks ambition.
On form, Japan are no one's fools and pushed AB and France teams at home this summer....it might do England good to lose this one....
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They won't nerf Eddie though. What would do England good is they sack him/he leaves after 2019. That ship has sailed, and they keep on quoting his win rate as evidence of success, which is like saying Liz Truss did fewer u turns than Tony Blair or Margaret Thatcher or that Norway's army ws undefeated by the Nazis, totally lacking context but technically true. In the context of tier one, Eddie's record is middling. To be fair Eddie has a good win rate vs Australia, but only two games vs NZ, but his win rate vs Scotland, Wales, Ireland, France is poor. Considering his poor 6n win pc record his trophy rate is excellent, a worse win PC than Lancaster but actual trophies of note is laudable, but they are front loaded towards the start of his reign.
He cares about the WC too much, fundamentally he is prepared to sacrifice everything on an event where we have a decent draw but where we normally make the semis on average anyway. One bad red card in the quarters and 4 years goes up in smoke. His refusal to countenance the Wades, Ciprianis of yesterday will be matched by the Malins and Thorleys of today, whilst straight jacketing players like Smith. Losing vs Japan will make us feel justified, but I doubt it would help one bit.
I will be cheering England on through the most gritted of teeth.
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I think I've worked out why EJ continues with OF. It's so that in postmatch interviews, in comparison to OF who seems unable to look at either the interviewer or the camera whilst mumbling "we've got to get better" (oh so perceptive!!), EJ appears the eloquent spokesman
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…………and…….it’s the same lot for the Japan game. ::)
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…………and…….it’s the same lot for the Japan game. ::)
England: Steward; Nowell, Porter, Farrell (capt), May; Smith, Van Poortvliet; Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Sinckler, Ribbans, Hill, Itoje, Curry, Simmonds.
Replacements: George, M Vunipola, Heyes, Coles, B Vunipola, Youngs, Slade, Tuilagi.
Tweet from Bobby Bridge.
Every ounce of joy gained by England starting van Poortvliet is deleted by Jack Willis’s omission v Japan. What more can we possibly learn from the Curry/Itoje back row combo? I’m bored of myself typing this, I just feel like England are missing out on a one-of-a-kind player.
And just what did Jack do wrong in the 5 minutes he was on the pitch?
Come on the Brave Blossoms.
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Glad he’s got 4 locks in the 23 just in case….
I know we like to criticise Tuilagi but I’d rather have him in there than Porter. The last time Porter played outside Smith and Farrell his job was a dummy runner for an hour until he then dropped a few passes and fell off a few tackles. May, JVP and Simmonds bring some much needed pace but that’s counteracted by no zip on the bench at all, Jamie George is probably the quickest.
Good old Eddie!
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Another opportunity passes by.....Firstly, wtf does JW need to do, to get a game? As Bobby notes - nothing to learn from playing a SR at 6, and for all Maro's good points - he sure ain't Richard Hill (per '03) and vs Japan you need pace...as per most other team tbh. And you need game time, especially when playing so poorly so often only one year out from a RWC.
Guy Porter? We have more 13's than anything - that we've wasted their inputs so often doesn't mean we need to try yet another one. Surely time to take a risk at 12, (no not Manu or Slade) and allow Smith to run the game. Jack Nowell, why? We have excellent wingers in May and Watson when fit - so play similar players that fit the plan (making assumption there..)
Regardless of the Aus tour, England have had two poor, seemingly pointless and directionless 6Ns where newer players haven't been developed/supported and all it seems Jones wants is to play OF and MT at centre and bash with SR's at 6. All supported by a pack that can be awkward and strong, but isn't going to outwit anyone.
Shame really given the players who could play!
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Just the normal BS from Jones. A relentless irritant. Apparently Willis doesn’t cover enough positions to make the bench - which has Billy Vunipola on it. I suppose we should be glad JVP gets in ahead of Youngs but it’s tempered by the fact we all know full well that will just be for the one game. Cockanasinga has obviously been dropped for daring to score a try (although he should never have been in for me). Basically it’s just the normal shambles. I think he’ll get away with it v Japan but I think we’ll get vaporised in the next two games.
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Willis has played across the back row for Wasps. Which other position does Eddie want him to cover?!
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Willis has played across the back row for Wasps. Which other position does Eddie want him to cover?!
Eddie's arse.
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like it
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like it
+1
I'd never hoped England lose until Jones took over. Post RWC, whilst disappointed by the final, I hoped we'd look to update and move on. But England seemed to carry on with "EA's plus" style of play. Demonstrated by the selecting of out of form/practice EA's in 2021 and "tactics" of running into tackle lines and hoping. This showed a poverty of thinking exemplified in the loss to Scotland that year.
We also seemed to want to go back, when possible, to the same players. It still looks like the preferred backline would be that of the RWC Final plus a different 15. And an unimaginative pack. Whilst being dull isn't a deal breaker - the arrogance and sheer BS spouted was my deal breaker. And I'm now hoping reality comes to face England this AI's.
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The frustration I have is that it doesn't matter who he picks, its how he gets them to play that is the issue.
Also the way pundits talk about how experienced & stable the England side is, without mentioning that if they are not winning games, whats the point of stability & experience? they just end up with experience of losing!
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Any chance of starting a thread where at least the country is spelt right even if the team are crap.
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Any chance of starting a thread where at least the country is spelt right even if the team are crap.
That do you?
I was taking the typo as a commentary on Mad Eddie.
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So sorry if I offended you jut a siple tying eror, took you long enough to notice it.
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I like that VV, because there is no g up in England at the moment, but no just a typo.
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The frustration I have is that it doesn't matter who he picks, its how he gets them to play that is the issue.
Also the way pundits talk about how experienced & stable the England side is, without mentioning that if they are not winning games, whats the point of stability & experience? they just end up with experience of losing!
Unless pundits are explaining the intricacies of the game, the laws or how it is being refereed etc I tend to ignore them. They all want to be friends with Eddie, club DoRs, senior players etc and so pull their punches. Even if they don't want to they know they'll get frozen out of press conferences and other media events if they are overly critical.
Eddie especially strikes me as someone who could be quite vindictive towards someone who has been overly critical.
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Any chance of starting a thread where at least the country is spelt right even if the team are crap.
That do you?
I was taking the typo as a commentary on Mad Eddie.
Excellent thanks.
I suggested adding an "F" to make it Fenland - a kind of boggy mess needing draining. Bit like English rugby top to bottom.
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Any chance of starting a thread where at least the country is spelt right even if the team are crap.
That do you?
I was taking the typo as a commentary on Mad Eddie.
Excellent thanks.
I suggested adding an "F" to make it Fenland - a kind of boggy mess needing draining. Bit like English rugby top to bottom.
After your idea of perhaps Wasps moving to East Anglia ,being an untapped rugby area, was going to suggest Cambridge as being convenient for M11/A14 and trains. However after your description of the fens maybe not.
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Any chance of starting a thread where at least the country is spelt right even if the team are crap.
That do you?
I was taking the typo as a commentary on Mad Eddie.
Excellent thanks.
I suggested adding an "F" to make it Fenland - a kind of boggy mess needing draining. Bit like English rugby top to bottom.
After your idea of perhaps Wasps moving to East Anglia ,being an untapped rugby area, was going to suggest Cambridge as being convenient for M11/A14 and trains. However after your description of the fens maybe not.
Of all the country in the South East Anglia is big rugby deficient- Cambridge, Ipswich, Colchester or Chelmsford all fine with lower division interest only. Norfolk a bit too strange plus far away.
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Unless pundits are explaining the intricacies of the game, the laws or how it is being refereed etc I tend to ignore them. They all want to be friends with Eddie, club DoRs, senior players etc and so pull their punches. Even if they don't want to they know they'll get frozen out of press conferences and other media events if they are overly critical.
Interesting that Danny Care was very, very critical of the cheats on the BBC podcast. I'd love to know how he maintained his love in with Jamie George as a result, but they clearly did through his summer recall.
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Unless pundits are explaining the intricacies of the game, the laws or how it is being refereed etc I tend to ignore them. They all want to be friends with Eddie, club DoRs, senior players etc and so pull their punches. Even if they don't want to they know they'll get frozen out of press conferences and other media events if they are overly critical.
Interesting that Danny Care was very, very critical of the cheats on the BBC podcast. I'd love to know how he maintained his love in with Jamie George as a result, but they clearly did through his summer recall.
I haven't heard that one, but good on Danny if he spoke some hard hitting truth.
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Well, I have decided to watch it…
Japan not offering much at the moment.
Porter stripped of the ball in his first carry, sure that happened on his debut too.
Hoping the JvP Smith axis can start taking charge but sure due to our early scrum dominance we’re just going to use that to churn out penalties
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Forza Italia!!!!!
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Forza Italia!!!!!
Now that was a match.
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Completely forgot it was happening. Sad to see we won well.
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Don’t be fooled VV. Japan were really poor.
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Morning Shugs - I think that whatever England did in that game - we'd learn nothing. It seemed a lot like the game (ancient history) I watched in Oz in '87 at the RWC when England with some much better (comparatively) players like Rory U etc, put 60 on Japan - but had a dominant front row and line and it looked like a practice game.
It told us nothing wither - as they lost in the 1/4 to Wales....
As Guscott noted in the Rugby Paper - England need to improve, lots, really quickly...Can't disagree - as they are otherwise likely to find the games vs SA and NZ a bit of a "challenge". Especially if the selection focus still seems to be on power, whilst ignoring pace. It was odd watching Bath - Tigers game on Friday. I seemed to have on view some better England qualified players - than were in the England squad. Lawrence is on fire, Watson looked like his normal self etc.
Really need to see some hope vs NZ next Saturday - as if we allow any quick ball - they aren't exactly going to spurn their opportunities...Pressure's off NZ, if anything, on tour and time to move on a little. Looked v dangerous vs what seemed a stale Wales. we'll see vs Scotland how they are shaping up.
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And surely England's impressive tour vs Australia is also put into perspective by yesterday's result.
Losing to Arg, NZ and the Boks would be awful. So what we need is a W, and that will be hard. I think one match might be possible. The Boks are currently 0/2 though, so you expect that bubble to burst.
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Morning Shugs - I think that whatever England did in that game - we'd learn nothing. It seemed a lot like the game (ancient history) I
watched in Oz in '87 at the RWC when England with some much better (comparatively) players like Rory U etc, put 60 on Japan - but had a dominant front row and line and it looked like a practice game.
It told us nothing wither - as they lost in the 1/4 to Wales....
As Guscott noted in the Rugby Paper - England need to improve, lots, really quickly...Can't disagree - as they are otherwise likely to find the games vs SA and NZ a bit of a "challenge". Especially if the selection focus still seems to be on power, whilst ignoring pace. It was odd watching Bath - Tigers game on Friday. I seemed to have on view some better England qualified players - than were in the England squad. Lawrence is on fire, Watson looked like his normal self etc.
Really need to see some hope vs NZ next Saturday - as if we allow any quick ball - they aren't exactly going to spurn their opportunities...Pressure's off NZ, if anything, on tour and time to move on a little. Looked v dangerous vs what seemed a stale Wales. we'll see vs Scotland how they are shaping up.
Agree Mike. I know Jones can’t win in that he has to win but is always being told to experiment. But really. Surely it was a chance to play Willis in the back row instead of Itoje. Apart from anything else Itoje is going to be asked to go full pelt in the other two games. We learnt that Van Poortvliet is a better option that Youngs. But it was always going to be the game to draw least conclusions from as Japan were really poor. The next two games are key.
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I just hope Jack is on the bench this time. Rumours have Simmons and Billy V starting with Itoje at lock
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Seen the squad for the NZ game - it seems that pace isn't a priority and Jones is hoping that OF and MT in the centres will "do a RWC SF" whilst by some miracle, BV, SS and TC will managed to compete as a back row..
We must be keeping our powder ultra dry if that selection with Nowell on the wing is supposed to look something like our best set up. No Malins, no Watson so Radwan no Freeman, no pace and Youngs on the bench to "finish".....No lineout option at No. 8.
If NZ get possession - it's going to be a long afternoon.....Even with the glimmer of hope at starting 9 and Smith at 10, the backs who played for Bath and Tigers last time offered a better choice than the selection England have decided upon.
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Small mercies Mike. At least he’s ditched the lock to back row nonsense. Ok he’s put a number 8 there but we can’t have everything. If Sam Simmonds is a better flanker than Jack Willis I must have been watching the game in a parallel universe. As you say, no pace apart from May in the backs so just line em up and knock ‘em down for NZ.
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In some ways Shugs - it's more about the "whole". There's something not working between changing room and coaching side. It's been recorded how Jones oft loses the changing room - but you can see it in the bizarre performances in the last couple of 6Ns etc. 2021, we were terrible vs Scotland, and Wales, both of whom out thought us - beat France in a great team performance and lost badly to Ireland. 2022 6Ns - out thought in Scotland and Ireland and France didn't have to play well to win easily.
Easily could win vs NZ, but frankly given recent form, I'd not be confident I could see a plan....Of course, we might still be holding our cards close to our chest....and the plan will emerge next year...
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You would think England won't lose both remaining fixtures.
I think England will raise their game for both. This is what happens when you lose to Argentina and forget to book Jones' bunnies the Aussies.
The fixture list probably looked fab in the summer, albeit with Arg and Jpn the wrong way round. Now there us a must win element in the last two weeks- to lose 3 from 4 with no tier one win ould be unthinkable with the 6n containing two clearly better teams and two who Eddie keeps contrivancing to lose to.
It's a blue home year, making Wales away one of the fixtures, and Ire away. Can't see them being wins, and Fra at home is looking dicey.
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Let’s play a lock at 6 for the last two years and then let’s just change it out of no where
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two clearly better teams and two who Eddie keeps contrivancing to lose to.
Word of the day! :D
I challenge all on here to use it at least once in conversation before the day is out!
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The way Italy are playing that could easily be a maybe as well!
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I obviously don't know anything about rugby, as I thought Jack would be a better flanker then Simmonds and I can think of 3 players better then Nowell. Clearly Jones knows what he is doing and we will win the next 2 games
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I obviously don't know anything about rugby, as I thought Jack would be a better flanker then Simmonds and I can think of 3 players better then Nowell. Clearly Jones knows what he is doing and we will win the next 2 games
Yay let's cheer the Ed of Knowledge!
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two clearly better teams and two who Eddie keeps contrivancing to lose to.
Word of the day! :D
I challenge all on here to use it at least once in conversation before the day is out!
The neologism is, of course, a typo. However, it is my intention to make "to Eddie Jones" a verb meaning to put together a device using what is to hand without recourse to the various parts' actual purposes.
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I like it. I think I may “Eddie Jones” my dinner tonight by making a nice omelette out of the sausage and potatoes in my cupboard.
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I used 'contrivancing' ten minutes ago and I claim my £5.00. Plus repair costs for my laptop as it didn't like it.
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It’s going to be a long evening at this rate.
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Very long.....three - nil......17mins.....Disallowed!
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Eddie "They are there for the taking" Jones, what a complete loser. I know the game isn't over yet. But seriously, just what does he bring to English rugby?
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Eddie "They are there for the taking" Jones, what a complete loser. I know the game isn't over yet. But seriously, just what does he bring to English rugby?
Wins
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For the opposition.
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Well that was bizarre. England were basically schooled. No invention in the backs. Out powered in the forwards. NZ seemed to want to play in excess of what they needed to do. But let’s make no mistake, this may have finished up a draw, but NZ were light years ahead. England are so one dimensional and frankly boring I hoped they’d lose. NZ will be disappointed to cough their lead up but they’ll go into the RWC knowing they have zero to fear from us.
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I thought England looked very good ….against 14 men.
What were the Kiwi’s doing at the end, kicking the ball away? This is not one of the great AB sides.
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Well that was like going to a brothel and ending up with a hug!
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We know where the Wasps players went, but I think I have found out where the Wasp game plan has ended up. That last 15 was straight out of the Wasps textbook. A clear case of copyright infringement, look great, win the game by miles, get a yellow and proceed to play like headless chickens as the opposition get all the momementum.
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I missed it. Thank you God.
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That performance ranks as one of the great self delusional comebacks of all time. Having been smashed at the breakdown, walloped in the collisions, half baked in the set piece and bereft of any attacking nous or attacking game plan for 70 mins, Eddie’s clique manage to sneak a draw against a very average 14 man All Blacks.
The fact that Smith kicked the ball out for a draw at the end (and Jones was beaming shaking everyone’s hands) says everything about the mentality of this set up - fear. There was nothing on this game and the All Blacks were there for the taking - a side with courage and belief would have tried to win.
I also thought it summed up the lack of real competitiveness in the Prem nicely. The step up in level was too much for a slow and lumbering Billy V, so used to an armchair ride, and Itoje was ill disciplined and average. Too used to easy games, the Prem lacks the quality to test top players week in week out and it’s beginning to show.
PS - Dan Robson must have watched in disbelief. In his prime easily the best 9 in England, Jones only ever allowed him 10 odd mins. Van Portvliet turned in the worst performance by an England nine I think I’ve ever seen having walked into the side. Any pretension to picking on form or class that EJ may have protested is now an absolute myth - if you’ve got friends in high places who can get you into the club you’ll go far..
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JVP with probably the worst half of rugby from 9 since recent prior effort of Ben Youngs and of course Danny Care’s last effort before he got hauled off.
I’ll give him a break but realistically it shows his selection is a naive choice. He’s only really in his second season at prem level and hasn’t had loads of minutes really over that time behind Youngs and Wigglesworth and has not played regularly in the top tier of Europe. A massive step up to play against the All Blacks and Aaron Smith.
If it wasn’t going to be Robson then Mitchell should probably be next in line but he’s obviously annoyed Eddie at some stage too after his earlier selections.
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Dan Robson a ten?
Sadly I believe Dan played more minutes for England at 10 and 11 than he was allowed at 9.
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And AGAIN, huge press build up to Tuilagi and he just did absolutely nothing. The myth of Sinckler and Genge was busted by a couple of decent props. We knew NZ would be ferocious at the breakdown so wheeled the anonymous Simmonds in with the best breakdown merchant in England in the bench. No attacking craft, no discipline and largely no idea.
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Grabbing a late draw after an hour plus of turgid and over structured play is probably the worst outcome for anyone who'd like England to look like a team that's more than the sum of its parts. The front the Rugby Post this morning is hailing this a great performance from England "to keep in the game". A game that Jones suggests many teams would have lost badly from HT.
But to select Nowell, BV and MT and others as starters and fail to play until desperation took over is not a plan for success. England have always been able to win a game. the 2012 6Ns vs France as an example. But haven't looked like they really know what they are trying to do for a long time. Having a big pack can often get you a win - but England have consistently been outthought and/or out paced too often. The contrast when watching Ireland is stark. Farrell's team really are comfortable about how to win a game and managed what few if any NH sides have done in the summer in NZ.
If SA play for 80 next weekend, we might well get a result that reflects those "lacks" of pace and thinking overlaid by a lack of power (in comparison to SA) and one that might not be v pretty. Such a result would do England no harm.
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Zinzan Brooke can't believe that the RFU have let Shaun slip thro' their fingers yet again. Probably didn't want to work with EJ. ''The Rugby Paper'' claims 'Jones hails England's incredible fightback'. Considering the ABs were a man down and the result was a draw Jones should shut up. The good news for chez Wonky is that it appears that Hereford has a wheelchair rugby club so a friend has promised to research.
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[quote author=WonkyWasp link=topic=5787.msg100225#msg100225 date=1668943181
The good news for chez Wonky is that it appears that Hereford has a wheelchair rugby club so a friend has promised to research.
[/quote]
What position do you fancy having a go at?
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Dan Robson a ten?
Whoops! Corrected now!
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The majority of England fans like a gritty, determined performance.
It's what England rugby's history is built on
A never say die, arm wrestle in the mud, eventually overpowering they opposition is seen as our core structure.
As wasps fans, we want to see something different.
I wonder what if the majority of fans of other clubs feel differently to us
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Hookender .... I'm not proud. Anywhere will do!
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Watching the France v Japan match and there is virtually nobody walking up and down the aisles. If this was Twickenham then ....
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Didn't see the game, did England do a lap of honour?!
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Watching the France v Japan match and there is virtually nobody walking up and down the aisles. If this was Twickenham then ....
One of the last England games I went to, back in 2018, the majority of people who were sat down weren't even watching the game but we talking amongst each other about unrelated gossip. They clearly had no intention of watching the game. They certainly wasted their money on tickets, unless that's the cost of being able to post a picture onto Instagram to say they were there. The RFU won't care, they sold the tickets, but fans who want to watch the game miss out.
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Watching the France v Japan match and there is virtually nobody walking up and down the aisles. If this was Twickenham then ....
One of the last England games I went to, back in 2018, the majority of people who were sat down weren't even watching the game but we talking amongst each other about unrelated gossip. They clearly had no intention of watching the game. They certainly wasted their money on tickets, unless that's the cost of being able to post a picture onto Instagram to say they were there. The RFU won't care, they sold the tickets, but fans who want to watch the game miss out.
That is what happens at pretty much every game at Twickenham, haven't been to an England test, I go to Murrayfield for my internationals, but have been to Eng vs BaaBaa's, Prem Finals, Big Games etc and it's always the same, lots of talking about random stuff and not watching the match, or constantly heading to the bar for beer. I went to the Quins vs BaaBaa's match last Thursday and that was exactly the same, in fact I'd go so far as to say it was the worst game I had been at for that level of movement during play, people were watching the game but constantly on the move.
So maybe it's a local thing.
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So we will apparently revert to 3 starting locks next week!
Hard to figure out what changes we will see but expect us to be heavily outmuscled as Italy were in the last 30 mins.
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Finally watched the whole match yesterday. For Eddie to attribute the comeback to achieve a draw (yes, a draw, in case anyone needs reminding, they still didn't win!) to "magic dust" just shows the arrogance of the man. No accountability for the dire first 70 minutes, trying instead to convince the media that England were doing what he'd coached them to do throughout, but suddenly passes started sticking in the last 10 minutes.
That whole match showed most of us that Eddie got his selection and tactics wrong (again). Against SA, the front row needs shaking up, Ribbans should start ahead of Hill, Willis for either Simmonds or Billy, Slade for Tuilagi, and some pace on the wing in place of Nowell. That and allowing Smith to run the game from 10 instead of Farrell destroying any attacking momentum. Farrell's leg injury allowed this to happen on Saturday to some extent. What we'll actually see is Itoje to 6, Youngs back at 9, everyone else as they were and JVP added to the list of promising young players who've had their confidence destroyed by EJ after one bad day.
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Agree with all of that DGP. It’s like he acknowledges parts were crap to justify sticking Itoje back at 6 whilst still saying it was fine. There’s no way Farrell or Tuilagi are getting dropped. Hill has been poor but will keep his place as we’ll be playing 3 locks from the start. How Willis can’t get a game is just bizarre. Simmonds - for me - is just too easily out powered in the international game. There are issue’s everywhere. As back up props Vunipola and Stuart are weak scrummagers. Nowell is as paceless and formless as I’ve ever seen. Steward is a good full back. He catches well, but he’s not dynamic enough to compensate for those in the back division with him. I thought NZ badly overplayed at times but some of their invention and craft were stuff we wouldn’t dream of attempting. They provided the only entertaining phases in the game. Smith kicking out at the end tells you all you need to know about this regime.
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IMO the only nations happy with their performance over the last 12 months will be Ireland & France.
Every one else has has results that should make their management concerned. Everyone seems to be able to beat everyone else on their day.
Could actually make for an interesting world cup...
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IMO the only nations happy with their performance over the last 12 months will be Ireland & France.
Every one else has has results that should make their management concerned. Everyone seems to be able to beat everyone else on their day.
Could actually make for an interesting world cup...
Problem there is that the WC draw was done ages ago when the world rankings looked very different to now.
Wales were top 4 at that time and therefore one of the top seeds. Theyr'e now 9th. The world's top 4 sides are all in groups A and B. If the draw were to be done following the current international rounds then it would look very different.
Drifting OT a bit, but it's a long standing bug bear of mine that the WC draw is done so far in advance of the tournament. What's the rush? We could do it next week and all teams would still have a year to prepare, and the seedings would reflect where teams are now.
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Don't disagree DGP, but it should make it interesting. Two of Ireland, SA, NZ & France cannot make the semi finals...
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Agree with all of that DGP. It’s like he acknowledges parts were crap to justify sticking Itoje back at 6 whilst still saying it was fine. There’s no way Farrell or Tuilagi are getting dropped. Hill has been poor but will keep his place as we’ll be playing 3 locks from the start. How Willis can’t get a game is just bizarre. Simmonds - for me - is just too easily out powered in the international game. There are issue’s everywhere. As back up props Vunipola and Stuart are weak scrummagers. Nowell is as paceless and formless as I’ve ever seen. Steward is a good full back. He catches well, but he’s not dynamic enough to compensate for those in the back division with him. I thought NZ badly overplayed at times but some of their invention and craft were stuff we wouldn’t dream of attempting. They provided the only entertaining phases in the game. Smith kicking out at the end tells you all you need to know about this regime.
+1 - I agree with you both
I agree especially about pace in the back three and power/agility up front. We have Malins, Watson and Radwan (amongst many) fit and able to play and in the case of Malins and Watson, experienced top class players that ought to be part of any current England back three
Up front....slightly left field but looking at the Wasps backrows of recent times we fielded Shields, and Willis x 2, we brought everything that a modern back row needs. Jackal, 8 who can do lineout duties as well as ball in hand and a 6 of the "Richard Hill" style of worker around the edges.
Yet what does England prefer? A SR, a slow off the pace 8 and a 7 who is looking less useful by the game.....
As for the front 5 - Itoje plus one, Marler, LCD and a solid tight head and we'd compete with anyone....
SA by several at the w/e.
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Just read that Eddie said that was Billy’s best game in an England shirt since 2019!
Yikes
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By best game you mean, he was raw stinking shit, and I am trying to wrong foot the oppo by pretending otherwise. Next Tuilagi will be getting praise.
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Just read that Eddie said that was Billy’s best game in an England shirt since 2019!
Yikes
Proves he's lost the plot! BV makes so little ground and is particularly ineffective when charging on to the ball two or three yards out. He seems so slow and easy to stop.
I know this is likely controversial, but jI was thinking that Steward is a step down on Mike Brown. Brown was fearless under a highball as much as Steward, but he made a lot more yardage with it in hand, and whilst preferring to run into contact rather than pass, he was a lot more competitive at the breakdown whilst Steward rarely does anything to contribute to a fluent attack in anyway.
There definitely seems to be a Borthwick bias in team selection with Steward, Porter and in particular Van Poortvliet jumping the queue to walk into the England side.
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England's 26-man squad for South Africa:
Forwards
Alex Coles, Luke Cowan-Dickie, Tom Curry, Ellis Genge, Jamie George, Jonny Hill, Maro Itoje, David Ribbans, Bevan Rodd, Sam Simmonds, Kyle Sinckler, Will Stuart, Hugh Tizard, Billy Vunipola, Mako Vunipola
Backs
Owen Farrell, Tommy Freeman, Jonny May, Jack Nowell, Guy Porter, Henry Slade, Marcus Smith, Freddie Steward, Manu Tuilagi, Jack van Poortvliet, Ben Youngs
Has Jack pissed in Eddie's beer?
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The argument on the BBC comments section is dropped vs released to his new club since this game falls outside the international window. Obviously such common sense has garnered no traction with the anti-Eddie brigade.
Be nice if the RFU would clarify which it is.
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That possibility hadn't occurred to me, Lwasp.
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Yes SA hit as well with release back to clubs.
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Just read that Eddie said that was Billy’s best game in an England shirt since 2019!
Yikes
Proves he's lost the plot! BV makes so little ground and is particularly ineffective when charging on to the ball two or three yards out. He seems so slow and easy to stop.
I know this is likely controversial, but jI was thinking that Steward is a step down on Mike Brown. Brown was fearless under a highball as much as Steward, but he made a lot more yardage with it in hand, and whilst preferring to run into contact rather than pass, he was a lot more competitive at the breakdown whilst Steward rarely does anything to contribute to a fluent attack in anyway.
There definitely seems to be a Borthwick bias in team selection with Steward, Porter and in particular Van Poortvliet jumping the queue to walk into the England side.
I tend to agree Andy. Steward would be in my squad but as a rounded full back he’s quite a way behind Malins for me. Why Malins isn’t in the squad is tantamount to professional neglect on Jones’ part.
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Eddie talking about needing extra lineout jumpers for this, so as already said in the press, Itoje goes back to 6 and I’d probably expect a 6-2 split on the bench to fit Simmonds and another lock in there.
Hope it’s not just a war of attrition and a kick fest, SA have been trying to attack a lot more with WLR or Limbok so hope they continue.
I think we could get very found out this weekend if SA click, and hope we don’t play well for 10 minutes leading to everyone at the RFU acting like we won and all is ok regarding those other 70 mins
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Just read that Eddie said that was Billy’s best game in an England shirt since 2019!
Yikes
He probably means that he obeyed Eddie's game plan to the letter, which in Billy's case appeared to be running in to the biggest opposition player in front of him.
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Starting XV: 15. Freddie Steward
14. Tommy Freeman
13. Manu Tuilagi
12. Owen Farrell (C)
11. Jonny May
10. Marcus Smith
9. Jack van Poortvliet
1. Mako Vunipola
2. Jamie George
3. Kyle Sinckler
4. Maro Itoje
5. Jonny Hill
6. Alex Coles
7. Tom Curry
8. Billy Vunipola
Finishers
16. Luke Cowan-Dickie
17. Ellis Genge
18. Will Stuart
19. David Ribbans
20. Sam Simmonds
21. Ben Youngs
22. Henry Slade
23. Jack Nowell
So - having been a bit slow around the pitch up front, that's a real lock at 6....which given the options is mad. Especially with Billy at 8, to run into contact and be tackled and Curry, seemingly having a lot of work to do....
With Slade finishing like a train, Manu is selected to start and Nowell is on the bench.....One tiny glimmer is Freeman at wing, though he is a fullback at heart....The naïve 9 has been retained. But he's going to have to be sharp this week as the SA team are no friendlier than NZ
But I would never start Mako in an international again, LCD is way ahead of George now and Sinckler is going to have a hard afternoon. I struggle to see a point of difference. SA will be very optimistic as they will have the power and game management to make England struggle.
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One of the bigest problems is that OF continues to be selcted.
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Just bad selection. M Vunipola weakens the scrum. Coles at 6 - just why?? Farrell/Tuilagi centre pairing stale/slow/predictable. Full back to wing. Standard Jones. Looks like we’ve worked out the best approach v SA is to power up. That’s how we’ve never beaten them recently!
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Who cares??
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Who cares??
I’m a bit like that now.
Coles at 6 is ridiculous. A decent player of course and in because Eddie says we need another lineout jumper against SA but is he by definition the best 6 in England?!
Good to see Nowell out as he has been anonymous, pleased he’s sticking with jvp despite his bad half, very un-Eddie like really.
Slade changed the game I think last week and is hard done by to not get picked.
Genge brings great impact later but surely then you go with a big scrummager to start and that isn’t Mako.
I’ll probably watch it but not that bothered about the result.
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Who cares??
Exactly.
I'm finding it harder and harder to care about anything to do with rugby now.
I can get my head round what happened to the club, however gutted I am about it. But the fact that the powers that be are deliberately doing everything in their power to ensure we stay dead makes me furiously angry.
I genuinely hope England lose.
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"Who Cares?"
I'm in the boat of wanting to support England - but have got to the point with the bizarre decisions and pissing on players' chips that I'm more than happy when England lose. If only to put the dampers on the BS and arrogant attitude that seems to be spread by a team and staff that haven't delivered.
Like many? fans, I was willing to give any coach a chance - but after a long winning streak - off the back of much of the work that Lancaster did.....we've managed a series of reverses. Longest losing streak, three of the worst 6Ns in 5 years (2018, 2021, 2022) the sort of results that get you sacked in normal times...
Getting to a RWC final isn't rare for England. England have always been able (if not willing) to beat NZ and anyone else. But what we seem to have now is "Eddie's private experiment" which seems to mean playing out of position, being a favourite or not and the management skills of an idiot - whilst seemingly having little idea what they are trying to do.....
So - I'd not be bothered by a 20+ point win for SA....but nothing will change - so I'll probably start taking an interest in another international team...now I speak some French....and want to move to Scotland! Hmmm.....
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I watched the NZ game because the ABs can be a thing of beauty when they are flowing and they promised that in the first 15 minutes, but then it went downhill. It was the first time I've sat down to watch a game since we went under and it didn't rekindle my love of the game.
Both sides are missing stars but in the case of England that's not just because the games outside the international window, so fans will be deprived of the best game possible, nevertheless I'll probably put the triumph of hope over experience and watch the game.
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I went to the NZ game. I realised I didn't care anymore - Eddie J and the Wasps disaster have removed something that has enthralled me since I first saw England v Ireland in the 1970's, with Fran Cotton marmalising his opposite prop 12 feet from my seat.
I have a property that is within 2 hrs of Brive, Toulouse, Castres, Agen, Auch, Montauban, Bordeaux and Pau, and a bit further to Perpignan, La Rochelle, Biarritz/Bayonne. I think I can see the way forward. I can invite both Willis brothers over for lunch 8)
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I have a property that is within 2 hrs of Brive, Toulouse, Castres, Agen, Auch, Montauban, Bordeaux and Pau, and a bit further to Perpignan, La Rochelle, Biarritz/Bayonne.
Sounds perfect, when will you be inviting us all round?
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One of the bigest problems is that OF continues to be selcted.
Exactly. Never a player to try and build a team round, as successive England coaches have been intent on doing. From the outside he appears to be at the heart of everything that is wrong with the current England team. Massively overrated and seemingly all too willing to believe his own hype.
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I went to the NZ game. I realised I didn't care anymore - Eddie J and the Wasps disaster have removed something that has enthralled me since I first saw England v Ireland in the 1970's, with Fran Cotton marmalising his opposite prop 12 feet from my seat.
I have a property that is within 2 hrs of Brive, Toulouse, Castres, Agen, Auch, Montauban, Bordeaux and Pau, and a bit further to Perpignan, La Rochelle, Biarritz/Bayonne. I think I can see the way forward. I can invite both Willis brothers over for lunch 8)
Can it house 5-7,000?
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Can't help but think that the fact that Jack was able to go to Toulouse and sign a contract with them yesterday because Eddie would rather play a Second Row in the Back Row sums up all that is wrong with him.
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Massively overrated and seemingly all too willing to believe his own hype.
I personally don't agree with that. I think he is a very good player, who EVERYONE rates. Not Just Eddie, but other coaches, players, pundits the lot. You will not find many people who know or have worked with him who have a bad word to say about him.
The problem England have is that he should either play 10, or not play at all. When he plays 12, he's running the game the way a 10 would, but from inside centre. That then causes the 10 to not play their natural game. We saw it with Ford, Cips & now Smith. I fail to understand why Eddie persists with it when it just has never really worked.
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Massively overrated and seemingly all too willing to believe his own hype.
I personally don't agree with that. I think he is a very good player, who EVERYONE rates. Not Just Eddie, but other coaches, players, pundits the lot. You will not find many people who know or have worked with him who have a bad word to say about him.
The problem England have is that he should either play 10, or not play at all. When he plays 12, he's running the game the way a 10 would, but from inside centre. That then causes the 10 to not play their natural game. We saw it with Ford, Cips & now Smith. I fail to understand why Eddie persists with it when it just has never really worked.
You know the answer to that question, BP. Eddie is never wrong ;)
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I went to the NZ game. I realised I didn't care anymore - Eddie J and the Wasps disaster have removed something that has enthralled me since I first saw England v Ireland in the 1970's, with Fran Cotton marmalising his opposite prop 12 feet from my seat.
I have a property that is within 2 hrs of Brive, Toulouse, Castres, Agen, Auch, Montauban, Bordeaux and Pau, and a bit further to Perpignan, La Rochelle, Biarritz/Bayonne. I think I can see the way forward. I can invite both Willis brothers over for lunch 8)
Can it house 5-7,000?
Only if they all bring a tent.
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Clearly EJ believes that the only thing that matters is the World Cup. Everything else is barely secondary.
That's not the sort of thing that people who have shelled out not inconsiderable sums for a ticket at Twickenham want to hear.
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I went to the NZ game. I realised I didn't care anymore - Eddie J and the Wasps disaster have removed something that has enthralled me since I first saw England v Ireland in the 1970's, with Fran Cotton marmalising his opposite prop 12 feet from my seat.
I have a property that is within 2 hrs of Brive, Toulouse, Castres, Agen, Auch, Montauban, Bordeaux and Pau, and a bit further to Perpignan, La Rochelle, Biarritz/Bayonne. I think I can see the way forward. I can invite both Willis brothers over for lunch 8)
Can it house 5-7,000?
Only if they all bring a tent.
A really big tent!
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Shambolic.
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Massively overrated and seemingly all too willing to believe his own hype.
I personally don't agree with that. I think he is a very good player, who EVERYONE rates. Not Just Eddie, but other coaches, players, pundits the lot. You will not find many people who know or have worked with him who have a bad word to say about him.
But is that not the very definition of over rated if viewed through the eyes of someone who doesn't share that opinion?
England a distant second again this week. Even with the Boks down a forward.
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So many players that EJ keeps picking just are not good enough at this level. Tuligani is a waste of shirt. He hasn’t got any place and no impact at this level. Front row should be embarrassed absolutely hammered.
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Guardian reporter on game
England have been out-thought, out-dogged and frankly outclassed for the whole evening.
No great surprise then?
And It’s hard to describe how utterly dominated England were here. Powdered up-front, stupid penalties given away, lineouts stolen, attacking pattern (such as it was) swarmed all over, and that is not an exhaustive list.
Oh dear...
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Unbelievable from Manu
“It was a tough game, we wanted to come out and attack the game which we did at the start, but South Africa put so much pressure on us and credit to them. The plan was clear for us, but SA are such a quality side and we weren’t good enough today.
We’re building nicely [for the world cup], I know it’s hard to see, but we are.”
Very hard to believe...
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For those of us who’ve been struggling to verbalise how poor England are that match said it very eloquently. Woodward said the most important job of the coach is selection. How has Jones got it so wrong? M Vunipola bought in to get marmalised at the scrum. Genge and Sinckler taught that posturing isn’t enough. Hill, no idea why he’s selected but he’s gone the extra mile and added rank stupidity to his game. Coles at 6? Enough said. B Vunipola - finished. How desperate is Jones to play Farrell when he’s obviously unfit. Tuilagi’s not done anything for three years and he’s part of the worst centre combination I’ve seen in years. Back three never in the game and Freeman shuffled to the wing. All the time Willis, Radwan, Malins, Lawrence, Rodd, Clarke, Dombrandt, Care, Mitchell, Hassell-Collins, Marler, McGuigan etc etc watch on. England were totally outplayed even with a man extra. They have no attacking strategy, no craft, no discipline and no ideas. This was an under strength SA as well. Jones’ legacy to the team seems to be a non earned arrogance and little else. One draw from the meaningful AI’s which really should have been 3 defeats - that says it all.
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Did they lose?
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:) Won 48-0.
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Ah good Eddie will stay longer then!
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I think Eddie is in need of a HIA.
I cannot think of any part of it that was even bordering on the acceptable.
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We’ll put, Shugs.
I’d love to hear Brian Moore’s thoughts but he seems to have given up the Telegraph’s rugby podcast.
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Nowell on the break brought down by a second row. Jonny May no longer first pick at Glozzer. But EJ thinks they got the pace to play on the wing for England.
The performance today was rank — it put the turd into turgid.
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Wonderful, could not have put it better myself. To be fair, there is time to polish the turd for the 6n.
To be honest, it isn't the turd that bothers me, it is the bullshit.
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That was one of the worst England performances I think I have ever seen. We are going into the WC with 4 props, none of whom can scrummage. Most of the remainder of the team are either has beens well past their use by date and others who have any flair rigorously coached out of them. Hopeless, inept, clueless. Jones has been taking money under false pretences. He's no coach, just a conman.
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So much for the bluster about ‘setting Twickenham alight’ for the fans. But that’s what it’s all about now - a set up that is so full of deluded bullshit there’s no humility or awareness of the institutionalised crassness that pervades the whole show.
Hill was an embarrassment to the profession today - completely useless in the lineout, scrum and maul and serving up some numbskull petulance via a couple of brainless cheap shots. JVP was slow to the breakdown all game, whilst Farrell and Tuilagi make for a midfield of the lowest skill set possible. Even Smith started the game kicking from hand rather than passing, and the crowd were booing Farrell for kicking the ball repeatedly in the second half.
This rabble are now so poor there’s no shape, style of play, ability to build phases and recycle or cohesion. They have completely lost their way and EJ has gone through so many coaches because he’s an overbearing bully you have to feel sorry for the players.
All this talk of building something is a desperate attempt to cover up the fact EJ and his chums are out of ideas and are going nowhere (if he knew what direction nowhere was). I don’t expect Sweeney and Co to do anything though because as we know they are asleep at the wheel and just taking money under false pretences.
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This was an under strength SA as well. Jones’ legacy to the team seems to be a non earned arrogance and little else.
This is it for me.
Eddie starts this, thinking we can put muscle SA, the front row selection was an error, thinking we needed another lineout jumper (which is fine) but that shouldn’t have been Coles, playing Freeman as defensive option against kicks but then hauling him off, midfield selection again means that when we can’t outmuscle then we then can’t turn on the attacking style either.
It was the whooping and hollering that still gets me. It starts in the Premiership with the arrogance of Sarries and has snuck to England.
Curry celebrating a penalty like he’d won the World Cup when there was 9 mins left and we were 21 points down was embarrassing.
An absolute misplaced arrogance.
Thought the likes of Faf and Etzebeth could really have rubbed our faces in it but were actually quite restrained.
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One incident in the first half summed it up for me.
JVP got lucky when an aimless kick got a lucky bounce and put WLR under pressure on his 5m line. He started to run the ball out but realised England's chasers were on him so he kicked through but it was a poor kick and England got the ball on SAs 22m on England's left wing.
SA's defence was stretched and England had numbers on the right. They started to move the ball cross field but when it got to Billy he just crashed in to SA's defence and the attack petered out.
Rugby by numbers.
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Again SA demonstrated that physicality with a fair sprinkling of nous and skill, that they will take this England to cleaners every day of the week. Heads up rugby.
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Why did Smith get subbed off when SA went down to 14 men? I'd have thought that's when you'd want your best 10 to start stretching the oppositions defence.
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Great tweet from mattbrown_10 (Wasps fan):
I’ve got no club
My country are fucking awful
What a time to be a rugby fan
You couldn't have summed it up better, matt.
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Why did Smith get subbed off when SA went down to 14 men? I'd have thought that's when you'd want your best 10 to start stretching the oppositions defence.
Fairly sure he picked an ankle knock
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Why did Smith get subbed off when SA went down to 14 men? I'd have thought that's when you'd want your best 10 to start stretching the oppositions defence.
Fairly sure he picked an ankle knock
Thanks.
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The narrative after every loss from Jones now is “blame me”. I have no problem doing that but maybe it’s time his employers listened to him.
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The narrative after every loss from Jones now is “blame me”. I have no problem doing that but maybe it’s time his employers listened to him.
The problem is his bloody employers.
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The one saving grace is that no Wasps (ex- or otherwise) were involved in that debacle.
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The narrative after every loss from Jones now is “blame me”. I have no problem doing that but maybe it’s time his employers listened to him.
Given that I blame Jones for the last two 6Ns - equal worst performances in 6Ns (equal to 2018...) and basically being out thought too often such that it seems if you get on England's case, you probably have them (c.f. 6Ns vs Wales in 2021....just terrible in the top two inches) and given that I also blame him for losing to Argentina and to a SA side lacking key players, perhaps as you say - it's time to have a parting of the ways.
The Rugby Paper this morning is basically naming successors (nothing surprising) But as SCW noted - selection is key as not only do you try and get your best players on the pitch, you hope to empower them to take good decisions
And yet - we've got an anonymous back three, a centre partnership that's worked occasionally and not recently and we seem to have swapped scrummagers for supposedly better players ball in hand...and a SR for a flanker...
It seems that there are those in favour and it doesn't appear linked to form or recent delivery. And how we can think of going into a game with an aging May - no longer first choice at Glaws and Nowell when there are players going well like Malins and Watson (playing for Tigers at FB today - nice option for them!) and even Daly - who seems transformed back at centre and Radwan and others with actual pace. Like the SA winger had.
Sometimes you get to the point when the management of any team/group can go no further. Group think, over familiarity, lack of challenge can all hinder progress - and all of those seem to be impacting a team where it's thought that Manu, BV and OF and Nowell are playing well enough to play international rugby....
Nothing is likely to change. France and Ireland especially, must be looking forwards to meeting England in the 6Ns and the others must fancy their chances....
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Not on here but I’ve seen a few comms stating he’s picking the best players “who else is there”. My starting fifteen would be
Marler
McGuigan
Sinckler
Itoje
Ribbans
Willis
Earl
Dombrandt
Mitchell
Smith
Lawrence
Slade
Radwan
Watson
Malins
Bench:
Genge
Cowan-Dickie
Rodd
Clarke (assuming no Lawes)
Ewers
Spencer
Ford
Daly
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As good a Shug’s XV looks, it’ll all fall to shit if they’re coached by Jones.
The Ahh Eff You need to pull their fingers out, otherwise we’re going to lose out to Wales in getting Gats on board for the second time.
If Wales do make the sensible choice, we’ve got to be on for the wooden spoon this 6N. Italy will certainly be fancying their chances to put in another “f*cking amazing” performance.
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Shugs - Not fair off what I'd select. I'd prob hope Nick I was fit and George M was in form too and I'd like Tom W at 8 in front of Dombrandt, but as noted above....it rather depends on who's coaching!
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If I was to give investment advice, which I'm not, I'd go long in whitewash shares.
England: RFU to conduct review into 'disappointing' autumn series
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63772071
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Even if they conclude that Eddie has to go (unlikely) and they manage to get a top class replacement such as Gatland before the 6N (more unlikely), given the massive personnel changes needed in the team, especially almost an entire back division, and the lack of opportunity given to and therefore experience gained by those who would logically come in, it's just too late to expect anyone (even WG) to be able to turn things around by the WC. That ship sailed about 12 months ago, or after the 2022 6N at best.
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Agreed, but at least it would be a step in the right direction instead of those steps in the wrong direction. Of course, re-jigging the whole RFU would be even better.
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How good is Gatland without Shaun.
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The RFU are going to review themselves basically. Wonder how that will go?
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The RFU are going to review themselves basically. Wonder how that will go?
Hopefully they will disappear up their own anal orifices.
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Oozlum Bird. (see Google)
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As SCW said about previous reviews, the personnel have always been kept anonymous, in his opinion because, of a conflict of interest, ie, they’re essentially reviewing themselves or it’ll be a bunch of people who have no right/experience/credentials to be reviewing Jones and the team.
Another pointless exercise - although Jones is now on less of a payout if he’s sacked.
Could work wonders, a caretaker manager type of momentum shift for us before the World Cup.
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given the massive personnel changes needed in the team
Don't agree. Its not the players, its the game plan that needs to change. Remember eddie took Lancasters failures & won a grand slam.
Look at the difference in Wasps when Dai left & Quinns when Gustard went?
The core of the team would remain under a new coach IMO, especially this close to the world cup
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Rugby tonight showed some stats regarding Smith and Farrell and how they and their clubs perform to indicate something not right about England.
The glaring one is England's ruck speed, which is woeful. I've mentioned it on this board before, adding why would you pick Youngs who slows it down even more. I've also said it was a failing with Wasps earlier this season.
When space is at a premium the quicker it can be utilised the more chance there is of creating something positive. Just relying on brute force to batter through the opposition only works if you are considerably stronger than them. No chance therefore against SA and consequently result is a foregone conclusion.
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given the massive personnel changes needed in the team
Don't agree. Its not the players, its the game plan that needs to change. Remember eddie took Lancasters failures & won a grand slam.
Look at the difference in Wasps when Dai left & Quinns when Gustard went?
The core of the team would remain under a new coach IMO, especially this close to the world cup
Quote out of context, where I did say that a change of coach now would be too late, for exactly those reasons.
But how much of the core of the current side would you retain for the opening 6N match if you got the gig tomorrow?
Tight 5 OK. Reshuffle needed in places, but no more.
Lawes obviously will come back once fit. Hill has to go. Would love to see Launch recalled.
Back row. Billy needs to go, and Itoje to lock, so there are 2 spots up for grabs there. Jack and Simmonds in the current squad, but who else?
It's in the backs where I think they need more significant upheaval.
If we're sticking with Smith at 10, then we need to select a back line that will play to his strengths, and the current lot doesn't.
Ditch Youngs, start Mitchell and then perm 2 from JVP, Randall, Care and Quirke to train with the squad and provide bench cover. All of the above have been dicked around by EJ to a greater or lesser degree (although at least he didn't immediately jettison JVP after the ABs game).
Need some invention in the centres (ie, definitely not Farrell and Manu), and some pace on the wings (ie, definitely not Nowell and May). Aside from Slade, we're going to need to look beyond the current squad for centres (Lawrence, Daly?). Watson is the obvious wing choice given his experience, then one of the young speedsters in the Prem on the other wing (Radwan, Hassell-Collins, Arundell etc)
No major issue with Steward at FB, although would prefer Malins.
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I actually think are only real problem position is 12. We have play Farrell or Smith - not both - then have Slade, Lawrence and Daly to pick from at 13.
Broadly speaking, if we play people in their preferred positions we’ve got a good enough squad. I’d jettison Hill as he brings more curses than cures. Joe’s maul-defence is a real differentiator, but I’d happily have Ribbans playing in Hill’s place.
Back row has bags of talent, we just need to find the balance. I’d like to see Jack for his ability to win turnovers again as a huge differentiator. Earl has been tearing up trees and is perhaps the best bench option. Simmonds still isn’t impressing me much. He’s a bit of an all-rounder. Do you stick with Billy at 8, Dombrant? Or go something like Jack, Curry, Earl as a 6,7,8? - Perhaps a bit lightweight.
In the backs, we’re stocked with healthy talent at 9, 10, 13 and on the Wing. Steward looks great at FB but then who do you play if he’s injured - Daly, or Watson or a wildcard like Arundell?
I think a coach that doesn’t exhaust them in training so much and a bit more free-thinking. Gats would fit short-term, but think he’ll end up back in Wales for the RWC although not sure how well that might work out.
Having listened to Jim and Goodey on The Rugby Pod the other week, if we could land Scott Robertson I’d be on-board with that for the RWC and let Eddie go early.
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Several issues suggest themselves, but this is what I see - not just from the AI's but from the last two 6Ns which are amongst the worst ever (Like 2018...)
a) Even when not 100% sure of what they are trying to do, England have always been able to fall back on a solid set piece and good game management (often connected - if in doubt, kick it out...)
b) Even in amateur days, we did seem to recognise that pace out wide (Rory etc) could turn any game - but seem to being actively avoiding selecting pace.....
c) We did even back at those days manage players better. They used to have other jobs a lot of the time - but that 91 side (and before) had a very decent idea of what it was trying to do and bought in to the plan. We also didn't seem to have a policy of "the head coaches way or the highway" Still stunned at some of the stories
d) 2021 6Ns was poor, out-thought and seemingly trying to bring players in when barely Prem players. People (like Lawrence and Martin) who we don't pick now they are showing form and have experience....
e) 2022 showed that we'd learned little if anything and were lucky not to lose 4 - Wales started playing about 5 mins too late...and demonstrated some edge.....Our plan looked like running into tacklers and hoping
So we've managed from an ordinary but not terrible 6Ns 2020,following two decent games at the RWC, to becoming less than the sum of our parts. And that's with access to a similar/same pool of players and some younger guns that needed encouragement and support.....
So the conclusion is - given the past - that Jones has a shelf life and that's gone. His shelf life from previous asks can be varied - Aus 2003 finalists, sacked in 2005.....after 8 of 9 losses....Reds, never in date...
It does seem that the coach and the players are not on the same page - but the risk for any dissenting players is great. NZStuff's conclusion was that Jones eventually loses the changing room. It seems that's been the case since playing Scotland at home in 6Ns 2021.....and not looking like we were at the races.
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...
Broadly speaking, if we play people in their preferred positions we’ve got a good enough squad.
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Absolutely.
There's less room for error the further up the competition leagues you go and at the very top small errors get punished swiftly and as players tire they lose concentration and are more likely to make errors.
Playing in their regular position means that muscle memory takes over from tired brains, not having to concentrate on what to do in unusual positions puts lets strain on brain in the first place.
Obviously some players adapt better than others, Brad is great across the back row and can even stop gap the 2nd row, for example. On the other hand I don't think Itoje should be playing in the back row, he's good but I don't think international standard and there's a lot better than him.
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Good post, Mike.
b) Even in amateur days, we did seem to recognise that pace out wide (Rory etc) could turn any game - but seem to being actively avoiding selecting pace.....
And its not just that raw pace beats defenders, it scares the living daylights out of them and makes them hesitant and more prone to mistakes or draws other defenders in leaving holes for others to exploit.
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May has pace, but that injury and subsequent recovery seems....suspicious. Was he actually fit?
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Widespread speculation surfacing that its Jones out Borthwick in in the morning.
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Widespread speculation surfacing that its Jones out Borthwick in in the morning.
Chris Foy is running with it.
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I've seen it too. I'm torn on Borthwick, and would've preferred Robertson.
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At least he has some Prem experience. Not being an arse is a start.
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Borthwick is another uninspiring choice, steeped the EAs kick and smash tactics, but at least he's a change from acerbic Eddie.
Would have been nice to have seen Robertson get the job and a change of direction.
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The RFU have always said that they'll replace Eddie with an English coach.
In fact, I believe that was always one of his targets. He has to identify English talent to replace him.
I'm sure he'd say that's why he kept going through so many coaches
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It’s a shame it’s not Robertson, it would have been good to see a fresh pair of eyes come in without an agenda or preference to any players, would have been good to see us play ever so slightly like the Crusaders too.
Wouldn’t have though Borthwick would have felt his job at Leicester was done but guess you can’t turn the opportunity down.
Can’t see many risks being taken under his tenure. Lots of set piece, box kicks from Ben Youngs being chased by backs who don’t really play to a game plan to suit their abilities.
We will see
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It's one of those matters where on reflection, you're not 100% sure you want what you wished for.
However, assuming Jones is replaced - I do think I might be able to support England - especially if the players look like they are - to quote a Gatland piece - round pegs in round holes. It was clear from the Prem game highlights I glanced at this weekend that Tigers and Saints had better back threes than the one England selected...Our team had better backrows than the ones England selected. It just seemed that Jones' England was trying to be clever for the sake of it. Rather than looking for a team that can win in more than one way.
Whilst the players have been away with England, Sale have probably had one of the better centre partnerships in Sam Hill (ex U-20's and Exeter) and Sam James and would probably work in a pragmatic team better than Sale's "star" player....
So any new coach really doesn't need to do that much, but selecting a back three of (say) Malins, Watson and Steward, a real backrow in familiar positions and a front row than can scrum provides focus like having a new coach tends to anyway....
I guess we'll find out. But I'd be glad if the coaching team was clearly on the same page and not always looking over their shoulder for the Jones "under the bus" moment....
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Whilst I cannot warm to the personality of Jones, nor the micromanagement of the game by him and his team, I do not see Borthwick as a significant improvement in matters.
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Whilst I cannot warm to the personality of Jones, nor the micromanagement of the game by him and his team, I do not see Borthwick as a significant improvement in matters.
+1
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Whilst not a huge Borthwick fan, he took a terrible Tigers side that should have been relegated & made them champions, so he did something right
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Yes as I remember he got them playing smash and grab boring rugby, not something Id'e want to watch, but who knows with the pick of English players it may turn out OK, I wont hold my breath,
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Whilst I cannot warm to the personality of Jones, nor the micromanagement of the game by him and his team, I do not see Borthwick as a significant improvement in matters.
I'm torn on the whole scenario overall. The lack of openness around why they feel like they're struggling for form is extremely frustrating. They don't need to give the keys to the Kingdom tactically, but at least demonstrate that for the 80,000 people and sponsors putting not insignificant sums into the game that you're aware you've underperformed and how/why.
Genge almost seemed surprised on last weeks The Good, The Bad and The Rugby Pod that the England win rate in 2022 was 42%. I'm not quite sure what he thought it would be?
Eddie says the results are his fault, Ellis says it's the players letting Eddie down and that they operate in a player-led environment. He speaks about Eddie giving them several different ways to play depending on the opposition and that the playing group are able to use those on the pitch to change the game.
But, for 2022, watching the games it's been the same boring, predictable one-out type rugby or heavy kick-chase other than the last 10 mins or so of the first test vs Australia (when Oz were down to 14 and then 13 men) or the last 10 mins against NZ (who had a man in the bin during that period) and when both games were largely out of sight and England had nothing to lose.
Are the differences so nuanced that pundits and fans would struggle to notice? Or are they just not being used?
Genge is a forthright, hardworking old-fashioned honest bloke but weirdly seemed to suggest that their form had actually been pretty good - 'world beaters' for scoring 20 points in 9 minutes against the All Blacks was something he referenced. He spoke about hating losing; but there was nothing to suggest the playing group recognised the uninspiring, predictable way that they're playing despite the talent available.
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Jones sacked it seems from Telegraph Rugby and others across twitter
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BBC have confirmed it’s official
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https://www.englandrugby.com/news/article/rfu-statement-on-eddie-jones
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Cockerill is interim head coach
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Cockerill is interim head coach
Yeah - that will be entertaining......
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Cockerill is interim head coach
I will be enjoying the champagne rugby now that Cockers is in. :-\
How about, and I am serious ROG? I know we say let us go English, but suppose we don't.
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Goodbye Eddie, and whoopee! Now I can (I hope) get rid of the candle that I've been sticking pins into for the past 5 years. It took a long time for it to work but we got there!
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Cockerill is interim head coach
I will be enjoying the champagne rugby now that Cockers is in. :-\
How about, and I am serious ROG? I know we say let us go English, but suppose we don't.
He's already said 'non'.
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What does Cockers' "interim" role involve exactly? Presumably they want someone permanent by the 6N, otherwise the new boss will have their work cut out to build anything before the WC. Between now and then, I'm not sure what an interim coach is bringing if he knows he won't be in the role by the time the squad next gets together.
This is at least a year too late. Just 9 months and 8 matches (Wales x3, Scotland, Italy, France, Ireland and Fiji) between now and the WC. Good luck to whoever takes over. England's hopes now rest on the team sustaining any immediate turnaround in fortunes that a new coach can often bring.
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Brendan McCullum turned serial losers into era-defining world beaters in a matter of weeks. It can be done.
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Brendan McCullum turned serial losers into era-defining world beaters in a matter of weeks. It can be done.
Who he?
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Sounds like Borthwick is on the way.
I too wanted EJ gone, but to do that appointment, 9 months before WC, for Borthwick is moronic. He'd have easily been acquirable after a world cup, why put pressure on with giving him 9 months?
And also, I really don't think we'll be any better under Borthwick. Boring as hell. Razor would've been perfect for Smith and pushing attacking rugby in England. If the current sacking was for Razor, I'd probably it.
And I feel for Tigers as well, they're properly screwed now.
Just several levels of stupid imo, for something that could have waited.
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If they'd been succession planning as we were told they were doing, the successor would already be known and it would be just case of anointing the deputy deputy as they would have already been working for the RFU. In the worst case it would mean paying compensation to a club to get early release.
As this hasn't happened someone is guilty of a dereliction of duty and needs to get fired.
My guess is that any proposed successor refused to work with EJ when approached, which is why it didn't happen.
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If they'd been succession planning as we were told they were doing, the successor would already be known and it would be just case of anointing the deputy deputy as they would have already been working for the RFU. In the worst case it would mean paying compensation to a club to get early release.
As this hasn't happened someone is guilty of a dereliction of duty and needs to get fired.
My guess is that any proposed successor refused to work with EJ when approached, which is why it didn't happen.
The same person who was told he ought to resign by the DCMS committee chairman?
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I suspect they have been bounced into announcing Eddies sacking as it had been leaked. I suspect they have replacement in mind but haven't had the time to negotiate their release
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Shortlist of four for me would be Farrell senior, McFarland from Ulster, Scott Robertson and Diamond. But I’ll take Borthwick as he’s not Eddie.
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Shortlist of four for me would be Farrell senior, McFarland from Ulster, Scott Robertson and Diamond. But I’ll take Borthwick as he’s not Eddie.
Forgot Diamond was out there. He would make a good choice to get the job done.
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Diamond won’t be offered the job for the reason Shaun wasn’t, too forthright.
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All I can see is two things from this. The first one is a scandalous lack of leadership, strategy, understanding and direction by the RFU, cemented by their determination to crush and destroy us and Worcs with today’s ruling and deadline. The game’s governing body is demonstrating wilful neglect of their duties and Sweeney should quit - in any other organisation or business his position would be untenable - sacking Jones two years too late, letting professional clubs go to the wall, being ripped to shreds by MPs in a public enquiry and now leaving their flagship side high a dry a few months before the World Cup.
Secondly, much the same it’s down to Sweeney, but Borthwick will be just a continuation of the Jones style (without the abuse). A Farrell dominated kick and chase outfit that will plod along with no vision, style or entertainment value.
I’d even prefer bigmouth Baxter over Borthwick, but I just can’t support an England team that represents the RFU - an organisation that put it’s foot on our head when we were drowning and needed help, and a league that is dominated by corrupt owners calling the shots.
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Agree with you Andy - it’s all gone a bit sour. I do hope Sweeney called Jones in and gave him his list of “work ons”. Win more games? Play some rugby? Stop being an arse?
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All I can see is two things from this. The first one is a scandalous lack of leadership, strategy, understanding and direction by the RFU, cemented by their determination to crush and destroy us and Worcs with today’s ruling and deadline. The game’s governing body is demonstrating wilful neglect of their duties and Sweeney should quit - in any other organisation or business his position would be untenable - sacking Jones two years too late, letting professional clubs go to the wall, being ripped to shreds by MPs in a public enquiry and now leaving their flagship side high a dry a few months before the World Cup.
Secondly, much the same it’s down to Sweeney, but Borthwick will be just a continuation of the Jones style (without the abuse). A Farrell dominated kick and chase outfit that will plod along with no vision, style or entertainment value.
I’d even prefer bigmouth Baxter over Borthwick, but I just can’t support an England team that represents the RFU - an organisation that put it’s foot on our head when we were drowning and needed help, and a league that is dominated by corrupt owners calling the shots.
+1
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The only reason why the RFU has acted so ‘decisively’ after all this time is because Slippery Bill is under severe pressure, is trying to cover his own arse and trying to remain employed.
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Baxter just been given a contract extension. That's either two fingers to England or making the statement that if the RFU want him they're going to pay top dollar to buy him out of his contract.
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Baxter just been given a contract extension. That's either two fingers to England or making the statement that if the RFU want him they're going to pay top dollar to buy him out of his contract.
Enough to pay for a new hotel?
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I sometimes listen to the Rugby Analyst and the Rugby Pod off YT. The two themes that came out of the Jones removal were respectively a) That he was prone to gaslighting and b) that players seemed to play worse for England and were often stressed by the experience
The RA was referring to press confs where Jones or selected players asserted that England were "close" "going in the right direction" etc. When the reality was that England were not demonstrating anything like a team on the verge of a breakthrough and that the claim to be "planning for the future" was time limited. Something you might say after the dull Autumn Cup and the dire 2021 6Ns, but not after another rubbish 6Ns and being stuffed by a part depleted SA team.
The Rugby Pod and Andy Goode was very interesting as he must know many of the key England players from EA Towers...and yet was quite scathing of the Jones regime and the impact on the players.
A question, what do all these coaches have in common? "Neal Hatley, Scott Wisemantel, Simon Amor, Jason Ryles, John Mitchell and Anthony Seibold" They've all left posts since the RWC in '19.
The Rugby Pod people were saying just how much players from the other countries enjoyed going to "camp" in stark contrast to those going to England camps. Like Joe Simpson said in that interview - the players all came back stressed to hell.
Purely from a management POV - the set up demonstrates softness and lack of ability from the RFU/employer side. They were prepared to take Jones' promises on the RWC and allow their HQ cash cow to wither in terms of results and entertainment. From the coaching level, the set up (and losses of coaches) smacked of a controlling relationship where your inputs were not valued. And a set up where dissent was discouraged such that Group Think was prevalent - without challenge to ideas. And without challenge - you end up playing like England did vs SA....Narrow of thought and play and predictable of action.
Personally, I'd have backed removing him after the 2021 6Ns and probably said similar at the time. But he had to go pre Aussie tour so that someone like Razor could have taken the squad on and had a tour, the AI's and the 6Ns to prepare. As it is, it's probably the worst of all worlds...
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Piece in the Guardian was rather supportive, trotting out the usual meaningless 73 pc bullshit and adding new levels of pointlessness to statistics that Jones has almost won as many matches as his 3 predecessors combined.
His win ratio in the 6n is actually lower than Lancasters by some margin and very similar to Johnson and Ashton.
Also said you don't win 18 games by accident.
To which the obvious answer is 'how else do manage to get 18 successive games with none against the world's top team and just one at home against the depleted second?'. Followed by 'how in the name of all that is holy does Uruguay count?'
I do hope we don't get revisionist balls over this. After his fine first two years we have had five years of shit. One title, 3 terrible finishes, and poor records v Ireland, Wales, Scotland, France and middling to meh one vs SA. Only Australia have kept Eddie in credit, whilst NZ a respectable 1/1/1 record isn't bad. Almost enough to keep him, but let us face it, the player and coach turnover is horrific.
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I do hope we don't get revisionist balls over this. After his fine first two years we have had five years of shit. One title, 3 terrible finishes, and poor records v Ireland, Wales, Scotland, France and middling to meh one vs SA. Only Australia have kept Eddie in credit, whilst NZ a respectable 1/1/1 record isn't bad. Almost enough to keep him, but let us face it, the player and coach turnover is horrific.
5 bad years? I'd argue 4.
2018, 2020, 2021 and 2022 have been bad to watch irrespective of winning a 6N. 2019 was the best I've seen us play under Eddie, and although we didn't win anything, was probably my favourite year.
Also our Wales records aren't too bad tbf, only lost to them 2 or 3 times if memory serves (and that's including friendlies), also good record against France.
Scotland was poor though.
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Yesterday's Times had several articles which broadly said: he's a maverick, some players loved him, some hated him, we won a lot if games, then we didn't.
Standard stuff for a club coach but do you want players to be unhappy about playing for their country? It should be a huge honour, something to look forward to beforehand and to look back on with pride and pleasure afterwards.
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Yesterday's Times had several articles which broadly said: he's a maverick, some players loved him, some hated him, we won a lot if games, then we didn't.
Standard stuff for a club coach but do you want players to be unhappy about playing for their country? It should be a huge honour, something to look forward to beforehand and to look back on with pride and pleasure afterwards.
I do hope we don't get too much revisionism as Jones took a squad - based around the England U-20's RWC team and got new coach bounce to win the GS and then a run that stopped rather quickly. 2018 was v poor and he was prob saved by Fiver winning a test in SA. 2019 started with a good win v Ireland but England only had four good games all year if you include beating the Aussies in the RWC.
Then it was dull or worse. The Autumn Cup was a waste - we kicked vs Georgia every time we could - 33 times from hand.....and then the 2021 6Ns showed a lack of ambition and selection (picking EA's from the Championship ffs) as did the 2022 6Ns.
A set up that worked whilst based on what was there already - and failed to develop - the SA game was clear evidence of that....
England have always been able to win any game - what a successful coach needs to do is add to that. Jones got England playing with those "adds" for 2 seasons and a couple of RWC games. But most of the other time, England were out thought (c.f 6Ns 2021) and seemed to fail player development. Why was a SR playing 6 vs SA when George Martin was available. A player played when not ready (2021 6Ns - after 6 Prem games ffs) and now ignored when in good form....for Tigers too. Ditto Lawrence, ditto Freeman and Watson is now fit and they played May and Nowell...etc etc.
England lost their way during the 2020 6Ns but no one at the RFU at the time wanted to believe that was it...
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I do hope we don't get revisionist balls over this. After his fine first two years we have had five years of shit. One title, 3 terrible finishes, and poor records v Ireland, Wales, Scotland, France and middling to meh one vs SA. Only Australia have kept Eddie in credit, whilst NZ a respectable 1/1/1 record isn't bad. Almost enough to keep him, but let us face it, the player and coach turnover is horrific.
5 bad years? I'd argue 4.
2018, 2020, 2021 and 2022 have been bad to watch irrespective of winning a 6N. 2019 was the best I've seen us play under Eddie, and although we didn't win anything, was probably my favourite year.
Also our Wales records aren't too bad tbf, only lost to them 2 or 3 times if memory serves (and that's including friendlies), also good record against France.
Scotland was poor though.
Depends on who you compare to- SCW's France record, or Lancasters', or Johnson's etc. Since Jones's 73% is trotted out as better than SCW, it is worth noting Lancaster's superior record vs France and Wales.