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31
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: The question everybody is asking.......................
« on: February 09, 2022, 11:17:47 AM »I think he was making the point that Jamie George should have been bought on as soon as LCD was yellow carded rather than the usual practice which is to wait for the next scrum. They could also have bought George on prior to the line out, the error was unquestionably allowing Marler to take the throw, that has to be the coaching staff's (i.e. Eddie jones) responsibility.Agree with the over-riding sentiment of the piece, but to hold Jones accountable for LCD's brain fart is perhaps stretching a point!
Also it was LCD who messed up not Jamie George
You would hope that an international team would be coached on how to deal with unusual circumstances like how to deal with being isolated facing a cross field kick. I'm not convinced that trying to catch the ball was the best option (although definitely better than deliberately knocking it into touch) It's too risky, spill the ball and the opposition winger picks it up and scores. catch it and go to ground and you run the risk of the winger winning a penalty for not releasing. Surely, as you are running across the pitch at pace, having noticed the advancing winger (which LCD definitely did) you allow him to go for the ball and time your run to clatter him. Good chance of him spilling the ball and you win a scrum or you drive him into touch and get the line out. Definitely lower risk. Would an International team not discuss these options in such a scenario? TCUP as Woodward used to preach. Noticeably absent from everyone in the England camp, players and coaches.
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Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: england
« on: February 08, 2022, 10:49:19 AM »Dobby's passing isn't the most accurate but he's light years faster than Youngs. Mind you, I'm comparing everyone to Andy Gomersall and Martyn Wood who were the scrum halves when I first started supporting Wasps. I remember watching the two of them going through a warm-up passing exercise with Nigel Mellville who knows a thing or two about scrum half skills. Passes like bullets with astonishing precision.Yes, it’s painful isn’t it. But it’s not changing any time soon. Randall is a poor scrum half for me - makes bad decisions. Quirke - still not sure. I think the two best scrum halves England have are Care and Robson but either will be selected.
I agree.
Although Quirke could be the long term prospect.
Quirke looks very promising, I agree that Randall isn't the answer, too much of a show pony for me, I wouldn't depend on him to make the right decisions under pressure, he can't make those trade mark breaks every time and certainly not against well organised international standard defences.
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Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: england
« on: February 07, 2022, 12:21:47 PM »
From my perspective the most depressing issue was the atrocious quality of the match having just watched Ireland give a master class on high tempo, 15 man rugby. They're playing an All Black style game but better than the All Blacks (on current form). The pace and speed at the breakdown was remarkable and the passing precision from quick ball almost impossible to defend. Committing the absolute minimum to the breakdown with forwards and backs equally buying in to the attacking patterns and executing extremely well. Everyone is saying that Wales were poor but I believe Ireland on that form would have comfortably beaten anyone.
Then we were "treated" to Scotland v England and it was so pedestrian it looked like a pair of pub teams vets by comparison. England had a fairly well drilled pack who dominated but were clueless at how to get over the line if the penalty they were hoping for didn't materialise. It was so evident at that last scrum that they were terrified of giving the ball to the backs if they didn't win a penalty and as it proved, pass to Slade, pass to Daly who inevitably got turned over, game lost, no surprise. Scotland, of course, celebrate like they've just won the World Cup but if they expect to win against anyone else after being dominated for 80% of the match they're dreaming. They were one brain fart by a hooker away from being comfortably beaten. Ireland and France and possibly Wales with home advantage will beat them if their forwards can't improve dramatically and win a bit of possession since all three have a far better coached backline than England. The least worse team won that match.
I would predict Scotland and England battling out for who finishes 4th and 5th unless one or other improves drastically. England have a moderately better chance as they should comfortably beat Italy and will hopefully be able to reinvigorate their attack (If Eddie allows them to actually keep hold of the ball). Scotland have a very difficult away match in Cardiff next in front of a passionate Welsh support against a team with a lot to prove so I suspect Wales will win. Historically it's not been a happy hunting ground for the Scots
Then we were "treated" to Scotland v England and it was so pedestrian it looked like a pair of pub teams vets by comparison. England had a fairly well drilled pack who dominated but were clueless at how to get over the line if the penalty they were hoping for didn't materialise. It was so evident at that last scrum that they were terrified of giving the ball to the backs if they didn't win a penalty and as it proved, pass to Slade, pass to Daly who inevitably got turned over, game lost, no surprise. Scotland, of course, celebrate like they've just won the World Cup but if they expect to win against anyone else after being dominated for 80% of the match they're dreaming. They were one brain fart by a hooker away from being comfortably beaten. Ireland and France and possibly Wales with home advantage will beat them if their forwards can't improve dramatically and win a bit of possession since all three have a far better coached backline than England. The least worse team won that match.
I would predict Scotland and England battling out for who finishes 4th and 5th unless one or other improves drastically. England have a moderately better chance as they should comfortably beat Italy and will hopefully be able to reinvigorate their attack (If Eddie allows them to actually keep hold of the ball). Scotland have a very difficult away match in Cardiff next in front of a passionate Welsh support against a team with a lot to prove so I suspect Wales will win. Historically it's not been a happy hunting ground for the Scots
34
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Other Games This Weekend - 'WARE SPOILERS
« on: February 07, 2022, 11:38:27 AM »Barnes did the same a few times. Essentially, if the ball is at the #8 and the scrum isn't going anywhere (stationary), then if it collapses, the ref will call ball available and not penalise anyone for going down. Also, if the team with the put in wants to win a penalty going forwards, they will need to get both side going forwards, and not just wheel it. So, by shouting stationary, the ref was saying, you are not going to get a penalty, and if you don't use it ...If this is a new directive to all referees I thoroughly approve. A scrum should be a contest for possession of the ball not a means to "win" a penalty. If you've got the ball to the No.8 it's a successful scrum so if it subsequently collapses it's irrelevant. That definitely seemed to be how the scrums in all 3 Six Nations matches were refereed.
You will notice different refs also call use it in different ways, rather than being consistent with just those words, 'Use it.' I think I heard Barnes say, at one point (maybe to Dan), 'You have 5 seconds.'
Not sure there's any need to have a different call, "Use it" means just that, the referee has judged that the ball is available and the scrum isn't moving therefore get on with it or lose possession if you don't within 5 seconds, simple.
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Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: The Phantom Smiter - And changes to the forum
« on: February 02, 2022, 10:52:58 AM »
The principal of being able to "Like" a post is great but it falls down because it's recorded against who posted the comment and therefore it becomes personal rather than against the post itself which might be a better indication of what subjects and discussions are preferred.
Would it be possible to have a total of "likes" for the post not the postee (is that a word?). What do people think of that as an alternative if it's possible?
Would it be possible to have a total of "likes" for the post not the postee (is that a word?). What do people think of that as an alternative if it's possible?
36
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Caterpillar
« on: January 19, 2022, 04:23:21 PM »First point is that under Law 6.5.a "The referee is the sole judge of fact and of law during a match" and Law 9.27 "A player must not do anything that is against the spirit of good sportsmanship" Those two laws are a sort of "catch all" to cover anything not specifically written into law (such as counting down 5 seconds at the ruck) If it's the referees judgement that it's against the spirit of god sportsmanship, those laws mean that you can't do it.Thanks Nigel.
Can you shed any light on any technical reason why the oppo counting down the 5 seconds would be stopped by the ref?
Probably comes under the same context as shouting at the referee.
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Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Caterpillar
« on: January 19, 2022, 01:31:02 PM »I have seen refs warn the 9, threaten to give a free kick, but bottle it and not do so despite persistent infringements.It’s a penalty offence? No wonder refs are reluctant to blow. Make it a free kick and I’ll bet they’ll blow more often.
Is it? I thought it was just a free kick offence?
It’s neither pen or free kick, the sanction is a scrum awarded to the opposition. Law 15.17 Ending a ruck. “When the ball has been clearly won by a team at the ruck, and is available to be played, the referee calls “use it”, after which the ball must be played away from the ruck within (note within, not after) five seconds. Sanction: Scrum”
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Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Caterpillar
« on: January 19, 2022, 11:08:16 AM »The refs can silence the players but not the crowd. Simple way to solve this is for the crowd to call out the countdown (obviously only when the oppo have the ball)Genius. I wouldn't expect referees to take much notice but it would definitely put extra pressure on the 9 to actually use the ball when he's supposed to.
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Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Match Thread
« on: January 17, 2022, 05:46:45 PM »The thing that I always find baffling about the way head on head collisions are viewed is that there appears to be an automatic assumption that blame for the collision must always lie solely with the tackler and not the ball carrier. Not saying it was the case in this instance, but simply having a rugby ball in their hands doesn't make a player incapable of a reckless action that could endanger a defending player. Tacklers are encouraged to get lower, but if the ball carrier goes equally low, then where does that leave the tackler?Totally agree. Whilst Jacob's technique needs to improve, no argument there, there is precisely zero force coming from him, it's all from the ball carrier. I was tempted to post a decidedly flippant and sarcastic message along the lines of;- "Professional Rugby Coaches at training: Right, forget everything we've taught you about ball retention and body position when you're tackled, we want you to head-butt the nearest player. We've discussed it with our lawyers and it would amount to assault if you did it anywhere else but according to the IRB it will be the other player at fault and he'll be sent off and banned". Not suggesting for a second that this describes what happened on Saturday but with the way that collisions are being officiated it's not too much of a leap to think that players might be encouraged to look for head contact when they are tackled. Hate to be cynical but coaches always look to gain any advantage. The lawmakers need to consider exactly which player is being reckless in any collision. Just because someone is holding a rugby ball shouldn't mean they can get away with idiotic and dangerous behaviour.
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Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Bobby's Ratings.
« on: January 12, 2022, 10:34:37 AM »As an old prop......played at a decent level in amateur days and had my arse handed to me on many an occasion from people who went on to rather greater thingsExcellent post and particularly good to hear from an ex-front row forward.
This is my take on scrum reffing. It seems to me to be a deliberately, unequal, contest for possession. It's turned into, too often, a penalty generator and waste of time.
Firstly, it does seem that losing a scrum, can mean being penalised.....though there is no specific Law about losing scrums. Too often, refs are keen to blow, rather than shout "use it". If you've won possession, you probably ought to be forced to use it more often. The Laws are quite complex on what is allowed/not allowed, but even so, it still seems that too many refs are guessing or awarding scrum dominance and not specific infringements.
It's not going to be sorted without a review - much as I am not in favour of them... - including front rowers, present and past. And a long look at what scrums are for and how best to achieve that.
Similar for the breakdown...though that I have seen v well reffed when the officials, coaches and players are on the same page. Most noticeably in what was Mitre 10 games. Again, it's an area needing a look - even WR have accepted that and issued guidance notes
But the bug bear for me is that offside and the breakdown could be sorted fairly easily. The TMO can do offside as easily as we can, watching TV feed....and the breakdown can work....Scrums are probably needing more work.
I have long thought that the game has drifted far too much from its original ethos. Of course coaches will always look at the laws of the game and look at ways to exploit them to gain an advantage but the tail shouldn't be allowed to wag the dog. It's up to the IRB to make sure they don't get away with too much. A scrum is a restart which should be a fair challenge for the ball with the team putting in trying to retain possession and the opposition trying to win it back. It is not, and should not be a way to "win" a penalty. That concept is ridiculous. If you get control of the ball you have successfully won possession so the referee should call "use it" not wait for the inevitable collapse and award a penalty. Similarly, if your strength and/or technique puts so much pressure on the opposite front row such that they stand up, lose their binding, lose their footing et cetera, well done, successful scrum you should be awarded possession, i.e. a free kick, NOT a penalty unless the referee is 100% certain that it was a deliberate act such as collapsing a scrum if the opposition is going for a push-over try. The focus on "winning" penalties at a scrum is a blight on the game and making technical offences free kicks would change the dynamic and I'm convinced would be a significant improvement and reduce the number of resets and time wasting.
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Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: england
« on: November 16, 2021, 05:34:53 PM »
Let me give you another example. A ruck has formed and a defending player is isolated beyond his team behind the 9 of the opposition who are in possession. He stands there, raises his hands to acknowledge being out of position but making no attempt to get back onside, however not "interfering with play". The 9 passes to the 10, the ball is out of the ruck and the previously offside player is now onside, he clatters the 10 and turns over the ball. Any half decent referee will ping him, the call is usually "Never onside". By your argument he should not be penalised because he didn't affect play while he was offside and was onside when he made the tackle! He gained a clear advantage by virtue of being in an offside position and therefore the penalty is correct.
Blamire was offside and gained a clear advantage by putting himself in position to receive a try scoring pass. Of course he was onside when he received the pass, he was onside the moment Simmonds went past, but had he waited until Simmonds had passed him before heading towards the Aussie try line which would have made it legal he would have had to accelerate from a standing start to catch Simmonds who is no slouch. I don't want to do Jamie Blamire a disservice, I'm sure he's a very fit lad but he would have had to shift his 17+ stone frame to catch one of the quickest No8 in England. I have serious doubts he would have been in the same position to receive that pass so he gained an advantage illegally.
These days they check the minutest detail when a try is scored in an international match and I was surprised that they didn't look at Blamire's score. Yes it's pedantic and it didn't affect the result, England were going to win the match but as per my original post, the scoreline flattered England.
Blamire was offside and gained a clear advantage by putting himself in position to receive a try scoring pass. Of course he was onside when he received the pass, he was onside the moment Simmonds went past, but had he waited until Simmonds had passed him before heading towards the Aussie try line which would have made it legal he would have had to accelerate from a standing start to catch Simmonds who is no slouch. I don't want to do Jamie Blamire a disservice, I'm sure he's a very fit lad but he would have had to shift his 17+ stone frame to catch one of the quickest No8 in England. I have serious doubts he would have been in the same position to receive that pass so he gained an advantage illegally.
These days they check the minutest detail when a try is scored in an international match and I was surprised that they didn't look at Blamire's score. Yes it's pedantic and it didn't affect the result, England were going to win the match but as per my original post, the scoreline flattered England.
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Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: england
« on: November 16, 2021, 02:02:07 PM »
If you're in an offside position it may be ignored if you make no material impact on play. Law 10.1 "...An offside player must not interfere with play. This includes a. playing the ball" Did his offside position have an impact on (interfere with) play? Yes, he put himself in a position to receive a pass to go on and score. As I mentioned, he would not have been able to receive that pass in that position had he retreated or waited to be put onside. The "moving towards the ball" applies to a player who is offside when a team mate kicks ahead.
It's highly likely that I'm being thick but I don't understand your point about attacking sides moving forward running optimistic lines from ruck to ruck, are you saying players are doing that in front of the ball carrier? The only time you see players moving forward in front of the ball is dummy runners when a ball is passed out of a breakdown position and if they happen to block an opponent who might have made a tackle (i.e. they interfere with play) they will certainly be penalised.
It's highly likely that I'm being thick but I don't understand your point about attacking sides moving forward running optimistic lines from ruck to ruck, are you saying players are doing that in front of the ball carrier? The only time you see players moving forward in front of the ball is dummy runners when a ball is passed out of a breakdown position and if they happen to block an opponent who might have made a tackle (i.e. they interfere with play) they will certainly be penalised.
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Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: england
« on: November 15, 2021, 02:05:30 PM »Simmonds ripped the ball from an Australian player and headed down the wing. At that moment Blamire was around 15m in front of him. If you're in front of the ball carrier on your team you are offside. You are obliged to either put yourself onside by retreating behind the ball carrier or wait until the ball carrier has passed you and put you onside. Blamire did neither, as soon as he saw Simmonds heading towards him he set off towards the Aussie line even though he was in front of him. Simmonds then goes past him, draws a defender and passes to Blamire who scores but he was only in position to collect the pass by virtue of having been offside therefore the try should not have stood. Had he stood still until Simmonds past him it would have been fine but of course he'd have to accelerate from a standing start to catch Simmonds up to receive the pass. Unlikely.The scoreline flattered England, how Blamire's try was allowed to stand is a total mystery to me. He was clearly in front of the ball carrier therefore offside when Simmonds scooped up the loose ball but he made no attempt to get onside or even wait for Simmonds to put him onside but immediately set off for the Australian line so he could receive the pass at pace when Simmonds went ahead of him. Bizarre.
How was Blamire offside?
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Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: england
« on: November 15, 2021, 11:37:42 AM »
After a bright first quarter against Australia I thought England looked pretty dire. They reverted to the tired old hoof the ball and chase which was totally ineffective in the last Six Nations and landed us in a deserved 5th place. South Africa will not be losing any sleep watching the match back, they are unlikely to concede as many penalties, turn-overs or make as many mistakes as Australia. You can certainly argue that England pressured them into many of those mistakes and penalties but the Boks will soak up that pressure relatively easily.
The scoreline flattered England, how Blamire's try was allowed to stand is a total mystery to me. He was clearly in front of the ball carrier therefore offside when Simmonds scooped up the loose ball but he made no attempt to get onside or even wait for Simmonds to put him onside but immediately set off for the Australian line so he could receive the pass at pace when Simmonds went ahead of him. Bizarre.
The scoreline flattered England, how Blamire's try was allowed to stand is a total mystery to me. He was clearly in front of the ball carrier therefore offside when Simmonds scooped up the loose ball but he made no attempt to get onside or even wait for Simmonds to put him onside but immediately set off for the Australian line so he could receive the pass at pace when Simmonds went ahead of him. Bizarre.
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Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: What the Data Science says about England Rugby
« on: November 15, 2021, 11:27:17 AM »
As thorough as the analysis is, I would argue that another key factor not mentioned is the diversity of sport in any given country and where rugby sits in the pecking order. I believe it was a fact that the UK won medals at the last Olympics across more sports than any other nation. In New Zealand when you discuss sport you mean rugby, either union or League, other sports are almost insignificant in comparison. Australia are hampered by their prowess in many other sports and in team sport Union is well behind League and Aussie rules. This obviously means that rugby is missing out on gifted athletes who may well have excelled at the sport. Take a look at UK rowing medalists, they're built like mountains and are incredibly fit, if any have some ball skills they'd make excellent second or back row forwards. Soccer is so much more popular in England, Argentina and Italy, how many skilful players might have made great backline players in rugby? (obviously they'd have to lose the mentality of "I've been tackled I'd better roll around on the floor for 10 minutes to try and win an Oscar- sorry, free kick or penalty").
It's far too simplistic to just look at the domestic game and how it's structured and decide that's the predominant factor in national success. The All Blacks have the pick of the top athletes in the country (even before you factor in plundering the Pacific Nations) which is how they can genuinely play a 15 man game, they all have incredible skill, that's got a lot to do with their consistent success.
It's far too simplistic to just look at the domestic game and how it's structured and decide that's the predominant factor in national success. The All Blacks have the pick of the top athletes in the country (even before you factor in plundering the Pacific Nations) which is how they can genuinely play a 15 man game, they all have incredible skill, that's got a lot to do with their consistent success.