Salary Cap Latest. Has the Investigation Sprung a Leak?

[Rossm]

Article today on Rugby Pass.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/saracens-salary-acing-potential-35-point-reduction-and-a-real-threat-of-relegation

Looks like faeces and fan are about to collide

[Neils]

Surprised at any form of leak. Apparently the meeting to inform all chairmen is tomorrow so it would have to have come from the investigators or possibly PRL. I can see years of legal though.

[Neils]

Interesting post on EAs site by Sarricen pleading for understanding and support from opposition fans. Saying as fans they are as, potentially,  disgusted as all of us.
Interesting but the main body of their posters are of the "it weren't us guv" type. Strangely even a Wasps poster praising them

[BrackenandMacken]

I saw the post on the EAs site and quite honestly couldn't believe the cheek of it.

If the verdict is, as the majority suspect and is being reported, that its confirmed they have been materially breaking the cap by a large margin for numerous seasons then I think they will be hard to find any support.

IF the verdict is as above you need to think about the impact their actions have had on the other clubs and fans.

Clubs who are playing by the rules and their fans have been denied the big days out to Twickenham, denied the lucrative oppourtinity to play in the top European competition and in some cases have been denied some of their best academy talents as Sarries have signed them up as soon as they show International potential (Billy and Lewington come to mind).

This is either going to be a watershed moment for the Premiership or a poorly thought out fudge. Will be an interesting week.

[mike909]

If the verdict is, as the majority suspect and is being reported, that its confirmed they have been materially breaking the cap by a large margin for numerous seasons then I think they will be hard to find any support.

This is either going to be a watershed moment for the Premiership or a poorly thought out fudge. Will be an interesting week.

Can't disagree with that. I have nil sympathy - though I did have a former career as an auditor.....but even without that, I'd be hard pressed to find sympathy when a cap that's meant to even out the competition is abused such that a multitude of internationals can be selected for one club.

[welsh wasp]

So will they get out of it this time? There have been enough stories about Saracens acting “wrongly”. An interesting passing comment about their finance person leaving.

[RogerE]

I saw the post on the EAs site and quite honestly couldn't believe the cheek of it.

If the verdict is, as the majority suspect and is being reported, that its confirmed they have been materially breaking the cap by a large margin for numerous seasons then I think they will be hard to find any support.

IF the verdict is as above you need to think about the impact their actions have had on the other clubs and fans.

Clubs who are playing by the rules and their fans have been denied the big days out to Twickenham, denied the lucrative oppourtinity to play in the top European competition and in some cases have been denied some of their best academy talents as Sarries have signed them up as soon as they show International potential (Billy and Lewington come to mind).

This is either going to be a watershed moment for the Premiership or a poorly thought out fudge. Will be an interesting week.

Not quite true as far as Billy is concerned. His family was out and out Saracens, and his mother used the "family loyalty" card to basically force Billy there, as was reported in the newspapers at the time.

Mind you I suppose Saracens could have said "no we won't sign him- he's a Wasps player"

[Neils]

Two directors left during the noise of the WC. Sort of thing Governments do to hide unpalatable matters.

[Vespula Vulgaris]

I saw the post on the EAs site and quite honestly couldn't believe the cheek of it.

If the verdict is, as the majority suspect and is being reported, that its confirmed they have been materially breaking the cap by a large margin for numerous seasons then I think they will be hard to find any support.

Theee is a vast difference between hoping the club get everything they deserve, and attacking the fans of that club.

[backdoc]

Sarries have been owned by Nigel Wray since the game went pro.

How can he be considered a 'right and proper person' to own the club if he is responsible for the financial doping, having already been through one cycle of legal threats and obfuscation?

[wasps]

How can they possibly be a certain amount over the salary cap?

It's probably a fair assumption that their official salaries are taking them right up to the limit of their cap after you take into account home grown players, academy credits etc.
They're surely too astute to allow the official salaries to take them over the cap.

So that then leaves these unofficial additional amounts in the form of joint partnership in businesses that have some funding from Wray.
These companies have various different amounts in them and presumably different dividend payments if any.

I can't see how they can be £650k over the cap (or any other amount) when the structure of those partnerships is so vague.
What I'm expecting to hear is that they've spent the entirety of their cap, plus are providing their players with businesses that have some value to them.... Which is either then deemed legal or not.



Finally, given the quality in depth that they have and the salaries these players could presumably demand elsewhere, £650k over the cap seems a small amount and would suggest to me that there's more hidden that hasn't yet been found.

If players in the cap are being paid under market rates, then that £650k is only 6 players being paid £100k below their rate. To me, that doesn't account for the gulf in quality of their squad

[Vespula Vulgaris]

It's not vague at all.

The returns they may or may not get in the future are irrelevant, the companies wouldn't exist without the investment of Wray and/or his cronies and so every penny that has been invested is over and above the salary cap.

If he bought a house worth 600k and then went into partnership with a playe he contributed 600k.  That 600k investment would not have happened if the player was not at Sarries. QED

[BrackenandMacken]

I saw the post on the EAs site and quite honestly couldn't believe the cheek of it.

If the verdict is, as the majority suspect and is being reported, that its confirmed they have been materially breaking the cap by a large margin for numerous seasons then I think they will be hard to find any support.

IF the verdict is as above you need to think about the impact their actions have had on the other clubs and fans.

Clubs who are playing by the rules and their fans have been denied the big days out to Twickenham, denied the lucrative oppourtinity to play in the top European competition and in some cases have been denied some of their best academy talents as Sarries have signed them up as soon as they show International potential (Billy and Lewington come to mind).

This is either going to be a watershed moment for the Premiership or a poorly thought out fudge. Will be an interesting week.

Not quite true as far as Billy is concerned. His family was out and out Saracens, and his mother used the "family loyalty" card to basically force Billy there, as was reported in the newspapers at the time.

Mind you I suppose Saracens could have said "no we won't sign him- he's a Wasps player"

I thought Mako came through the Bristol system?

Didn't Billy's dad coach at high Wycombe Rugby club. What made them become so Pro Sarries rather than the club on his doorstep?

[wasps]

It's not vague at all.

The returns they may or may not get in the future are irrelevant, the companies wouldn't exist without the investment of Wray and/or his cronies and so every penny that has been invested is over and above the salary cap.

If he bought a house worth 600k and then went into partnership with a playe he contributed 600k.  That 600k investment would not have happened if the player was not at Sarries. QED

But the salary cap is an annual thing.
If the money was out into the companies 3 years ago, there'd be an argument that they were over the cap 3 years ago, but not now.


I think it still stands that I'd be surprised if they're only £650k over the cap.

If a top tier 1 international player is worth £300k - £400k and maybe more if they're a starting lion, then for Saracens to only be £650k over the cap would mean that they're only 2 international players better than the rest of the league.

When you look at how many players they have at the world cup, and how many ex internationals still in their squad, they seem to be more than£650k ahead of us

[Neils]

At the time of re-signing it was in the papers that both Farry and Itchy were being offered in excess of £750k to sign 5 year deals. Now that could all be rat shit but shows the ball park salaries could be in. Remember Biggar is on £650k as widely  reported so it would seem fair for England's premier players (queue wretching).