Always a Wasp

Author Topic: Should he stay or should he go?  (Read 9686 times)

Gaz

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2019, 03:04:57 PM »
Just did a very quick bit of research, check out the ex-Wasps currently plying their trade in the Premiwership - both experienced professionals and academy propspects. This is without those that have retired or left the game (Haskell, Wade), or those gone back overseas (Beale, WLR).

Each one has their own reasons for joining and for leaving, and one or two were only ever temporary signings, so I am not pointing at a systemic issue necessarily, but it does make you wonder whether the outgoing turnstile could have been stemmed somehow, in at least some of the cases.

This is mainly off the top of my head;

Bath
Beno Obano
Will Stuart

Bristol
Nathan Hughes
Charles Piutau
Siale Piutau
Alapati Leiua
Tom Lindsay
Lewis Thiede
Piers O'Conor

Exeter
Alec Hepburn
Harry Williams

Glos
Simmo
Cips

Irish
Brendan Macken

Leicester
Kyle Eastmond
Jonah Holmes
Guy Thompson

Quins
Michele Campagnaro
Matt Symons

Sale
JCW
Rob Webber

Saracens
Elliot Daly
Billy Vunipola
Alex Lozowski

Worcester
Tom Howe

Westy68

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2019, 04:25:44 PM »
I would of paid the big bucks for Charles Piutau, sad that Guy Thompson left, i thought he was a good 8. Also Nathan leaving was a big disappointment for me, i do highly rate him. Him Willis and Youngs would be fantastic.

Billy we couldn't do anything about, don't think we could have done anything about Cips, Will Stuart is also a shame and JCW. The rest doesn't really bother me

If we hand Cips, Nathan, and Charles then i don't believe we would be eleventh

Neils

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2019, 04:40:50 PM »
Piutau is on £1m a year which is an insane amount to pay. If we hadn't had him for the 9 months or so we did very few would be concerned where he played. He does seem injury prone plus even with us he was selfish. However he was good.
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Hymenoptera

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2019, 05:36:57 PM »
I guess at some point in development you have to decide if you think peeps will make the grade, alot show later and that's part of life, like Launch for quins I guess.

Bath
Beno Obano - There were better at age level
Will Stuart - Bags of cash

Bristol
Nathan Hughes - Bags of cash
Charles Piutau - Contract then 3 bags of cash
Siale Piutau - Short term / Pat Lam relationship
Alapati Leiua - Largely Injured then struggled to nail a spot / Pat Lam relationship
Tom Lindsay - 10 years later still can't throw straight
Lewis Thiede - Didn't kick on
Piers O'Conor - OK for Bristol at best

Exeter
Alec Hepburn - Not sure
Harry Williams - Not sure

Glos
Simmo - Playing time
Cips - Playing for time

Irish
Brendan Macken - Not an Irish starter, average player though never let us down. Do wonder if he would have shone with more gametime.

Leicester
Kyle Eastmond - Always broken, still broken
Jonah Holmes - Didnt show much in the opportunities he had.
Guy Thompson - Broken alot and upgraded with Carr

Quins
Michele Campagnaro - Journeyman short term
Matt Symons - Guessing cash

Sale
JCW - Cash and girlfriend
Rob Webber - Bath lure and cash

Saracens
Elliot Daly - Property deals but less money
Billy Vunipola - As above
Alex Lozowski - Didnt want to leave London, future property magnate

Worcester
Tom Howe - Average for Worc
« Last Edit: October 29, 2019, 05:39:01 PM by Hymenoptera »

Neils

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2019, 06:04:58 PM »
Thanks for that appraisal.
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BG

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2019, 06:21:33 PM »
Most players progressing from age group, up to being paid to play rugby will have respresented a lot of clubs. One of the people I played with at a young age went from Warwickshire.. To Leicestershire for Tigers and then onto Quins.. where he was given a job on the stock exchange whilst still playing rugby (via contacts at Quins).. when he realised he was useless at that as well as realising his rugby career was over he tried his hand at something else.

Players will always try to maximise their opportunities and income which is why I have no problem with Hughes and JCW leaving (I'm sure there are many more).

What I have a problem with is players breaking contracts.. the employer has paid the wages and invested in them.. maybe the employers need to tighten up their employment contracts

westwaleswasp

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2019, 07:24:16 PM »
The one we miss most of those is Cipriani, as player, and probably mote as de facto coach of the backs too, if what had been intimated on message boards by more knowledgeable guys than me is true.
Be honest, prior to Cips we were ok to good in attack, and relied on Wade/Varndell in a bit of space. Varndell was the guy who Losi replaced, as I have mentioned a couple of times recently. The most lethal wing we had ever, bar Wade, replaced by someone who played like someone between an 8 and and a 13.we kind of forgot it as we then signed quality after quality, but whay if Dai actually thought that Losi was a better bet than Varndell? What if that is what he wanted? Halai was another power house. Maybe Dai actually does prefer more power in the backs. We had some decent tens in that time prior to Cips, and our basic strategy was throw it around and hope to get it wide as the fowards were underpowered or over the hill. Once Cips arrived we developed a more coherent attack that still relied on individual brilliance but also had some structure. Post Cips we have been dire. Hell the number one ten at the club last Feb was Searle. Earned the shirt on merit, according to Dai, and he was not wrong.


Players will come and go, you will always lose  players you regret losing, but the worry for me is not that we lost X or Y, but that what we have bought in at the same cost - Shields, Fekitoa, Lima is not going to work as well. Fekitoa has plenty of time, but to still be making paper thin excuses for Lima is beyond the pale. Shields for me is a decent choice who offers much grunt abd unseen stuff but once Carr, Young and Willises are all fit doesn't even make the fifteen, before we even consider our latest import at 8.

I hope that we get that W soon. I want Dai to see out the year, but if we start with 5 or 6 loses that may not be possible.





Shugs

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2019, 07:46:30 PM »
In terms of the question posed I don't think Dai should go. I've just counted 20 players in our senior squad with senior international experience. So, for me, recruitment has been fine. The age of the galactico has been eased out as it had to be and we now have a pleasing blend of youth and experience with several really quality players. But it's not happening on the pitch at the moment. It's certainly not one factor. I think there's a degree of truth that after our final defeat to Exeter and subsequent defeat in the semi to Saracens Dai sat back and thought we needed to get more pragmatic at fly half and dominant up front in order to challenge. We've got better but we fall somewhat between two stools in terms of style and ambition. Secondly I wonder who the "big voices" are in the dressing room/on the pitch. Our co captains are excellent players but they are not archetypal leaders. JL is not either, nor is LS. I believe we're too quiet and for want of a better phrase at times too nice. Thirdly we were dealt a rubbish hand last year in a myriad of ways. We've had to bed more in this year than we would have hoped. For me this is less about talent and coaching and more about mindset. If we can stumble our way to a couple of wins I genuinely think we'll see a better side. We have the quality and we have a good D of R.

Hymenoptera

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2019, 08:11:28 PM »
I agree Wwales..Cips always lead the backs at every reset, he's doing the same at Glaws. I suspect he controlled much of back coaching when he was here.
A leader in directing play.

Eezamarlowman

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2019, 09:05:59 PM »
In my view Dai should go. He has been with us for 8 years and we have won nothing. We are also a very long way from winning anything in the future. It comes to something when I can’t stand to watch my beloved Wasps anymore because their style of play, continuous stupid mistakes, and what appears to be low levels of motivation, truly makes me feel sad. No other club would put up with this. I firmly believe we would see an immediate upturn in performance if Dai were to go. Been a supporter of his in the past but for me enough is enough. Rugby and pro sport is a results game. You should not get to keep your job if you can’t produce good results.

westwaleswasp

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #40 on: October 30, 2019, 08:30:23 AM »
I agree Wwales..Cips always lead the backs at every reset, he's doing the same at Glaws. I suspect he controlled much of back coaching when he was here.
A leader in directing play.
So if it is true, how do we solve the issue? New attack coach, or new DOR? Whuch I guess is the point of the thread.

RogerE

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #41 on: October 30, 2019, 08:53:03 AM »

Saracens
Elliot Daly - Property deals but less money
Billy Vunipola - As above
Alex Lozowski - Didnt want to leave London, future property magnate


Billy's mother, who I have met a few times as she is/was a church minister in the Wycombe area, was insistent that family loyalties must come first, and because his father worked for Saracens, and his brother played for them, she didn't want them playing against each other.

If you had ever met her you would do exactly what she told you to do, as I am sure Billy did.

Brandnewtorugby

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #42 on: October 30, 2019, 09:29:06 AM »
I think he should stay for his contract, but agree all not well. My two pence is that Wasps have lost focus on off ball aspects.

I don't understand about the technical side of the game much, but my non technical view has been that Wasps don't seem to support breaks like they used to and they don't seem to pounce on opposition errors like they used to. It was often Simpson, Thopson, Mullen, Hughes, Launchbury, Gaskell who would 'magically' appear supporting a break or chase and only two of those are left. I guess that is the result of lots of effort off the ball, that often comes to nothing. In one of Mullen's last games he was supporting Wade, of all players, after running three lengths of the pitch!

« Last Edit: October 30, 2019, 09:47:04 AM by Brandnewtorugby »

Vespula Vulgaris

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2019, 11:03:32 AM »
I think he should stay for his contract, but agree all not well. My two pence is that Wasps have lost focus on off ball aspects.

I don't understand about the technical side of the game much, but my non technical view has been that Wasps don't seem to support breaks like they used to and they don't seem to pounce on opposition errors like they used to. It was often Simpson, Thopson, Mullen, Hughes, Launchbury, Gaskell who would 'magically' appear supporting a break or chase and only two of those are left. I guess that is the result of lots of effort off the ball, that often comes to nothing. In one of Mullen's last games he was supporting Wade, of all players, after running three lengths of the pitch!

Mullan at his best was one hell of a player, to be able to scrummage the way he did and also to have the fitness and straight line speed of a back is extremely rare.  I think we miss him more than we know.
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mike909

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #44 on: October 30, 2019, 12:32:00 PM »
More an observation than an answer - watching a number of live games in their entirety - both Prem and Cup games - what seemed most apparent to me at least, was that we really didn't have a game plan to fall back on when things aren't going like vs Worcs in the Cup second half

What was interesting from the games to date is that - clubs like Bath - were experimenting in the Prem Cup. Bath with a chase and maul game - giving them another string to their bow when they get all their RWC players back and can run from anywhere. Sarries were adjusting their kicking game to be even more effective within their squad players - but still recognisable as Sarries and watching Saints beat Sarries - it was recognisable as Saints from last season as they played to a pattern with the players outscoring Sarries 3-1 in tries, and trust in a younger FH.

But watching our games - we've not really had a plan it seems. It was a bit like the Aussie team who have been too often - been a team, less than the sum of their parts

On the coaching issue - if we were to make a change - sooner rather than later. Its not like soccer where many coaches almost specialise in saving teams in trouble over the last third of the season - there isn't that in rugby - if we are in trouble at xmas, table-wise, we can only save ourselves.

It would be a start to see the team looking like a team with some sort of plan.