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Author Topic: A question about Sarries  (Read 16781 times)

Old Geezer

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A question about Sarries
« on: November 18, 2019, 03:53:10 PM »
I believe the punishment meted out to Sarries was for previous seasons.  Can anyone explain to me how they are not in breach again this season please?  Thy have apparently said they are not but that is difficult to understand if there are no changes from previous seasons.

Tervueren

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Re: A question about Sarries
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2019, 03:58:31 PM »
The salary cap covers payments to players plus those associated with them:

(A) a spouse or civil partner or any other person living with that Player
in an enduring family relationship;
(B) children or step-children;
(C) siblings; and
(D) parents;

It does not specifically mention Grandparents, look out for a rise in the share price of the manufacturers of Worthers

InBetweenWasp

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Re: A question about Sarries
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2019, 04:32:43 PM »
It’s a question I’m curious of the answer to, but a bit like the rest of this sorry affair there’s no meaningful detail out there.  Instead, there’s two conflicting tidbits that have been spoken/written about:

- Saracens sent auditors paperwork relating to the forthcoming season to demonstrate their intent to operate within the cap
- There is no obligation to scrutinise their salary cap considerations until the end of the season, when they’re due to be submitted.

Saracens have claimed to be within the cap this season.  Of course, they claimed the same for the previous 3 seasons as well. 

Hymenoptera

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Re: A question about Sarries
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2019, 06:02:41 PM »
I believe the punishment meted out to Sarries was for previous seasons.  Can anyone explain to me how they are not in breach again this season please?  Thy have apparently said they are not but that is difficult to understand if there are no changes from previous seasons.
They are not in breach today because they can't be investigated until the end of the year...beyond that, I wouldn't spend too much time analysing stuff we don't know about

MarleyWasp

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Re: A question about Sarries
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2019, 06:23:52 PM »
They only become in breach of the cap when they pass the ceiling of the cap. Pro rata calculations count for little at this stage, as they have a player on a short term deal and players may retire through injury during the season.

Given we're only four and a half months into the Salary Cap year, if they've already breached the cap they're really going to be in trouble.

Shugs

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Re: A question about Sarries
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2019, 07:36:45 PM »
It's a good question. As I understand it we are being asked to believe the following. 1) Sarries were in breach of the cap in previous seasons but not in a way where stripping titles etc is even being suggested. 2) They are compliant this year. We do not however appear to have a squad jumping up and down protesting at pay cuts (by any route). 3) Even though they word things as if they are merely some innocents who have been a bit naive they are willing to accept a large fine and points deduction. So there is no retrospective sanction. No forward looking sanction (squad trimming) and they'll basically pay the fine and finish mid table this year via a stronger but "now compliant" squad. Interesting.

BG

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Re: A question about Sarries
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2019, 08:32:41 PM »
They only become in breach of the cap when they pass the ceiling of the cap. Pro rata calculations count for little at this stage, as they have a player on a short term deal and players may retire through injury during the season.

Given we're only four and a half months into the Salary Cap year, if they've already breached the cap they're really going to be in trouble.

The cap will cover the whole season so Sarries will have to do some creative accounting to get below it. I doubt any player will take a pay cut or be asked to leave.. which leaves Sarries in between a rock and hard place as employment law will usurp anything that Sarries could throw at players in terms of NDA's.


Rifleman Harris

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Re: A question about Sarries
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2019, 09:08:38 PM »
I thought that the maximum sanction had been applied for a beach of the cap. Whether that could have been applied for each year they were over I don't know, but a 105 point deduction would have been a real deterrent to anyone else considering it.

I don't think anybody will trust the Cheats until there is some concrete and credible changes to the squad. I don't think we will see that.

It made me smile (ironically) when the radio said this weekend that Cheats had put a squad of inexperienced young players out.. How many internationals were in the squad? More than a lot of teams have in a 1st XV.

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backdoc

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Re: A question about Sarries
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2019, 09:18:57 PM »
11 Internationals, including 2 world cup finalists and one winner.

Rifleman Harris

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Re: A question about Sarries
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2019, 09:20:42 PM »
11 Internationals, including 2 world cup finalists and one winner.
I thought it was inexperienced. They were lucky to keep the score down so well with only the 11 internationals!

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Tervueren

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Re: A question about Sarries
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2019, 09:46:36 AM »
I don't have a Times subscription, but for anyone who has (if they have not already read it) this was the article earlier this year about the South Africans selling up to Wray and suspecting a Salary Cap breach

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/saracens-former-owners-feared-salary-cap-breach-m7jm7gj2k

Fats

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Re: A question about Sarries
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2019, 10:58:24 AM »
Saracens’ former owners feared salary cap breach
Owen Slot, Chief Rugby Correspondent
March 5 2019, 12:00am,

Wray, the Saracens owner, owns businesses with leading players including Farrell and the Vunipola brothersDAVID ROGERS/GETTY IMAGES
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The South African former co-owners of Saracens sold their 50 per cent shareholding in spring last year in part because they were uncomfortable about whether the leading club in England were obeying the Premiership salary cap rules.
Saracens’ adherence to the salary cap was being investigated yesterday after a newspaper exposé that found that Nigel Wray, who is now the club’s sole owner, had entered into business partnerships with some of the club’s leading England players, including Owen Farrell and the Vunipola brothers.
Premiership Rugby said yesterday that it would “look closely” at these business partnerships with Wray, the 70-year-old property investor whose personal wealth is estimated at about £315 million, to ensure that there had been no breach of their salary cap rules.
Saracens said that all the details of the business partnerships that were in the Daily Mail yesterday had already been declared to the Premiership salary manager.
The South Africans, who owned half of the club, were concerned about the club and whether it was breaching the cap. They made it clear that if the club were not under the cap, and within the spirit of the cap, then they would leave.
When they did sell last year, after nine years of ownership, Johann Rupert, the businessman rated by Forbes as the fifth-wealthiest man in Africa with a net worth of $5.3 billion (about £4 billion), walked away, writing off debts of about £25 million.
Rupert is mainly based in South Africa but he was represented by his daughter, Caroline, who was a board member and asked in a board meeting for reassurance that the club were complying with the Premiership salary cap rules. She was given assurance that the club were inside the cap. She asked for the conversation to be minuted.
However, in 2015, Saracens and Bath were found guilty of breaching the rules of the cap. On that occasion, the Ruperts and their company, Remgro, elected to stay with the club. Last spring, they finally sold their stake.
The Times understands that the South Africans always asked for an unequivocal answer as to whether they were within cap. When they asked questions, they were told that the cap rules were open to interpretation.
Documents at Companies House reveal that Wray, Billy Vunipola and Mako Vunipola are shareholders in the property investment company VunProp Ltd, while Farrell and Wray are joint shareholders in a financial management firm, Faz Investments Ltd. Wray has a similar partnership with Saracens’ former England scrum half Richard Wigglesworth in a company called Wiggy9 Investments Ltd.
Under Premiership Rugby salary cap rules, all arrangements and contracts between players and club officials must be declared to the league’s salary cap manager Andrew Rogers.
A Premiership Rugby statement yesterday said that it took the salary cap framework “very seriously” and would be considering this information on Saracens “in detail”. It said: “Premiership Rugby has a duty to all clubs to deliver the system in a transparent, objective and non-discriminatory manner. Any decision on follow-up action would be taken with the assistance of independent bodies in accordance with the regulations.”
Saracens responded in a statement last night that said: “Firstly, we would like to reiterate that the club readily complies with Premiership Rugby salary regulations and information relating to remuneration is declared to the salary cap manager.
“Although co-investment partnerships between owners and players are not a prerequisite of the salary regulations, we disclose these transactions to Premiership Rugby and will continue to do so.”
The statement also emphasised that the salary cap rules gave clubs dispensation to spend beyond the £7 million according to how many home-grown players that they developed. The present squad, it said, contained 57 per cent home-grown players, which allowed the club to spend £1.2 million beyond the £7 million.
The arrival of the South Africans at Saracens nine seasons ago triggered the most successful period in the club’s history. The success only became a habit when a golden crop of home-grown players, including Farrell, Jamie George and George Kruis, came through their academy.
As the Farrell generation came through, their salaries grew from the comparatively small contracts that they were on in the academy to deals in the region of £500,000 a year.
This has taken them beyond the £7 million mark. Many fans of rival clubs believe that they must have broken the rules. Last month, when Saracens signed Elliot Daly, the Wasps player, to join next season on another high salary, some rival owners were exasperated.


matelot22

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Re: A question about Sarries
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2019, 12:20:45 PM »
I've emailed PRL asking that very question (among others). Unsurprisingly, they've not yet replied.

Rossm

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Re: A question about Sarries
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2019, 01:36:49 PM »
Does anyone think, had England won the WC, that it could be argued that the trophy is tainted (by association)?
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Neils

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Re: A question about Sarries
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2019, 02:03:22 PM »
Does anyone think, had England won the WC, that it could be argued that the trophy is tainted (by association)?

If pressed - yes!
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