Exeter supporters petition for club to drop 'racist' Native American branding.

[InBetweenWasp]

I can sort of see the logic there, Willie, but part of me wonders whether there's a crossover between time it'll take to reverse this ripple effect by the likes of being told not to sing Swing Low at Twickenham, or Exeter changing their name/brand from Chiefs to something else and generations who see people simply as good or bad as opposed to by their race, sexual orientation etc...

It's fair to say there's an ageing population for whom casual racism was widely deemed acceptable.  I think about some family members who are in their 80's and 90's who have a very different view on the world to I do.

I just don't see the same use of condoned casual racism amongst 'my' generation and those after me.  Nor do I see it in my parents generation either.  I wouldn't be surprised if the antiquated attitudes towards race quite literally died out over the next 10-15 years.

I wonder if it would take much longer than that for the ripples created by getting rid of any innocently meant but potentially offensive, or inappropriate team names, mascots etc... to reach the much more prominent issues like police brutality, or board inequality etc...

So would we be better off actually tackling the major issues faced today and working our way downwards to those issues which, whilst potentially offensive, aren't actively preventing people from gaining promotions, or being involved in various sports, or simply that don't threaten peoples lives?

[Vespula Vulgaris]

I can sort of see the logic there, Willie, but part of me wonders whether there's a crossover between time it'll take to reverse this ripple effect by the likes of being told not to sing Swing Low at Twickenham, or Exeter changing their name/brand from Chiefs to something else and generations who see people simply as good or bad as opposed to by their race, sexual orientation etc...

It's fair to say there's an ageing population for whom casual racism was widely deemed acceptable.  I think about some family members who are in their 80's and 90's who have a very different view on the world to I do.

I just don't see the same use of condoned casual racism amongst 'my' generation and those after me.  Nor do I see it in my parents generation either.  I wouldn't be surprised if the antiquated attitudes towards race quite literally died out over the next 10-15 years.

I wonder if it would take much longer than that for the ripples created by getting rid of any innocently meant but potentially offensive, or inappropriate team names, mascots etc... to reach the much more prominent issues like police brutality, or board inequality etc...

So would we be better off actually tackling the major issues faced today and working our way downwards to those issues which, whilst potentially offensive, aren't actively preventing people from gaining promotions, or being involved in various sports, or simply that don't threaten peoples lives?

I think this raises a really interesting point.

We look at generations that came before us and we see the racist beliefs that are inherent in their behaviours, that stem from their upbringing.  We do our utmost to ensure we don't fall into the same pattern of behaviours.  But just as they don't see their behaviour as being wrong as it simply refelects the world they were born into, neither do we for ours.

We see ourselves as being free from racist beliefs and behaviours, yet still we bristle when someone points out that perhaps we are not as free from sin as we think.

We live in a society where black people are less likely to get good grades at school, less likely to earn high salaries if they even get a job at all, and less likely to own their own homes than white people.  Where black people are more likely to be stopped and searched by police, more likely to be arrested, and more likely to be imprisoned by courts that white people.

Clearly there is a long way to go before equality is reality, and so the insistance of white dudes like me that racism isn't really a thing any more probably isn't helpful.

If black people say they experience racism then I for one won't disagree with them, I will simply try to look at my own behaviours and fundemental beliefs and see where I am failing.

If native Americans don't want us to use a stereotypical caricature of them as a funny mascot then maybe we should listen to them instead of telling them they worry too much and there is no harm being done.

We should be asking what we can do to help, rather than arguing that their desire for equality infringes on our god given right to be free from any inconvenience at all.

[RogerE]

Had a look at that thread - very balanced, a credit to the supporters.

... and then it went downhill

[Hymenoptera]

I can sort of see the logic there, Willie, but part of me wonders whether there's a crossover between time it'll take to reverse this ripple effect by the likes of being told not to sing Swing Low at Twickenham, or Exeter changing their name/brand from Chiefs to something else and generations who see people simply as good or bad as opposed to by their race, sexual orientation etc...

It's fair to say there's an ageing population for whom casual racism was widely deemed acceptable.  I think about some family members who are in their 80's and 90's who have a very different view on the world to I do.

I just don't see the same use of condoned casual racism amongst 'my' generation and those after me.  Nor do I see it in my parents generation either.  I wouldn't be surprised if the antiquated attitudes towards race quite literally died out over the next 10-15 years.

I wonder if it would take much longer than that for the ripples created by getting rid of any innocently meant but potentially offensive, or inappropriate team names, mascots etc... to reach the much more prominent issues like police brutality, or board inequality etc...

So would we be better off actually tackling the major issues faced today and working our way downwards to those issues which, whilst potentially offensive, aren't actively preventing people from gaining promotions, or being involved in various sports, or simply that don't threaten peoples lives?

We live in a society where black people are less likely to get good grades at school, less likely to earn high salaries if they even get a job at all, and less likely to own their own homes than white people.  Where black people are more likely to be stopped and searched by police, more likely to be arrested, and more likely to be imprisoned by courts that white people.

With respect VV I think you may have slept and woken up in the 50's or you've digested someone else's opinion from the media buffet. You like to question source so what's yours to substantiate this statement?

[matelot22]

I'm probably going to provoke quite a reaction here, but many of these views conveniently overlook a very simple fact that BAME groups are equally, and frequently more, racist than your average white person, in my experience........

[DGP Wasp]

We live in a society where black people are less likely to get good grades at school, less likely to earn high salaries if they even get a job at all, and less likely to own their own homes than white people.  Where black people are more likely to be stopped and searched by police, more likely to be arrested, and more likely to be imprisoned by courts that white people.

With respect VV I think you may have slept and woken up in the 50's or you've digested someone else's opinion from the media buffet. You like to question source so what's yours to substantiate this statement?

The point about black people being more likely to be stopped and searched, arrested and imprisoned is accurate and backed up by police figures.  However, as unpalatable as it may be to many, this is not unrelated to the fact that black people are proportionately more likely to commit crime.  The figures for gun and knife crime overwhelmingly highlight black people as both perpetrators and victims.  Stop and search is one way to prevent this tragic loss of life, all too often among the young, and police forces should not have to apologise for profiling based on this in order to save lives.  If large numbers of innocent people need to be stopped and searched for each successful search that  takes a lethal weapon and the individual intent on using it off the streets, then that is a price worth paying for the lives that will be saved.  Black lives matter when they are exchanged in senseless gang related violence too.

[matelot22]

We live in a society where black people are less likely to get good grades at school, less likely to earn high salaries if they even get a job at all, and less likely to own their own homes than white people.  Where black people are more likely to be stopped and searched by police, more likely to be arrested, and more likely to be imprisoned by courts that white people.

With respect VV I think you may have slept and woken up in the 50's or you've digested someone else's opinion from the media buffet. You like to question source so what's yours to substantiate this statement?

The point about black people being more likely to be stopped and searched, arrested and imprisoned is accurate and backed up by police figures.  However, as unpalatable as it may be to many, this is not unrelated to the fact that black people are proportionately more likely to commit crime.  The figures for gun and knife crime overwhelmingly highlight black people as both perpetrators and victims.  Stop and search is one way to prevent this tragic loss of life, all too often among the young, and police forces should not have to apologise for profiling based on this in order to save lives.  If large numbers of innocent people need to be stopped and searched for each successful search that  takes a lethal weapon and the individual intent on using it off the streets, then that is a price worth paying for the lives that will be saved.  Black lives matter when they are exchanged in senseless gang related violence too.

Well said DGP, that was another point I was going to mention (my sister and my son being police officers), but facts like that are often wasted on the righteous......

[Rossm]

We live in a society where black people are less likely to get good grades at school, less likely to earn high salaries if they even get a job at all, and less likely to own their own homes than white people.  Where black people are more likely to be stopped and searched by police, more likely to be arrested, and more likely to be imprisoned by courts that white people.

With respect VV I think you may have slept and woken up in the 50's or you've digested someone else's opinion from the media buffet. You like to question source so what's yours to substantiate this statement?

The point about black people being more likely to be stopped and searched, arrested and imprisoned is accurate and backed up by police figures.  However, as unpalatable as it may be to many, this is not unrelated to the fact that black people are proportionately more likely to commit crime.  The figures for gun and knife crime overwhelmingly highlight black people as both perpetrators and victims.  Stop and search is one way to prevent this tragic loss of life, all too often among the young, and police forces should not have to apologise for profiling based on this in order to save lives. 

Really? These statistics (source not quoted) which often get trotted out to support this point of view presumably are for large, inner cities. I live in Hastings and I can categorically state that the majority of crime locally is committed by white people.

[Vespula Vulgaris]

With respect VV I think you may have slept and woken up in the 50's or you've digested someone else's opinion from the media buffet. You like to question source so what's yours to substantiate this statement?

Anything in particluar you dispute?

[Vespula Vulgaris]

The point about black people being more likely to be stopped and searched, arrested and imprisoned is accurate and backed up by police figures.  However, as unpalatable as it may be to many, this is not unrelated to the fact that black people are proportionately more likely to commit crime.  The figures for gun and knife crime overwhelmingly highlight black people as both perpetrators and victims.  Stop and search is one way to prevent this tragic loss of life, all too often among the young, and police forces should not have to apologise for profiling based on this in order to save lives.  If large numbers of innocent people need to be stopped and searched for each successful search that  takes a lethal weapon and the individual intent on using it off the streets, then that is a price worth paying for the lives that will be saved.  Black lives matter when they are exchanged in senseless gang related violence too.

It's very easy to see two things and assume one causes the other, while they may both be results of a separate unknown causative factor.

I suspect, (and I accept that I do not have a source to back this up) that poverty causes violent crime, and being black makes you more likely to live in poverty.  That if you compare crime figures for black vs white people in the same income brackets the figures would not be so disparate.

[InBetweenWasp]

The point about black people being more likely to be stopped and searched, arrested and imprisoned is accurate and backed up by police figures.  However, as unpalatable as it may be to many, this is not unrelated to the fact that black people are proportionately more likely to commit crime.  The figures for gun and knife crime overwhelmingly highlight black people as both perpetrators and victims.  Stop and search is one way to prevent this tragic loss of life, all too often among the young, and police forces should not have to apologise for profiling based on this in order to save lives.  If large numbers of innocent people need to be stopped and searched for each successful search that  takes a lethal weapon and the individual intent on using it off the streets, then that is a price worth paying for the lives that will be saved.  Black lives matter when they are exchanged in senseless gang related violence too.

It's very easy to see two things and assume one causes the other, while they may both be results of a separate unknown causative factor.

I suspect, (and I accept that I do not have a source to back this up) that poverty causes violent crime, and being black makes you more likely to live in poverty.  That if you compare crime figures for black vs white people in the same income brackets the figures would not be so disparate.

I’d agree with your suspicions.

I wonder if you’d see a higher proportion of violent, gang-related crime in similar income BAME communities to similar income White communities where you might see less violent gang crime and more ‘petty’ crime - burglary, theft etc...

[matelot22]

The point about black people being more likely to be stopped and searched, arrested and imprisoned is accurate and backed up by police figures.  However, as unpalatable as it may be to many, this is not unrelated to the fact that black people are proportionately more likely to commit crime.  The figures for gun and knife crime overwhelmingly highlight black people as both perpetrators and victims.  Stop and search is one way to prevent this tragic loss of life, all too often among the young, and police forces should not have to apologise for profiling based on this in order to save lives.  If large numbers of innocent people need to be stopped and searched for each successful search that  takes a lethal weapon and the individual intent on using it off the streets, then that is a price worth paying for the lives that will be saved.  Black lives matter when they are exchanged in senseless gang related violence too.

It's very easy to see two things and assume one causes the other, while they may both be results of a separate unknown causative factor.

I suspect, (and I accept that I do not have a source to back this up) that poverty causes violent crime, and being black makes you more likely to live in poverty.  That if you compare crime figures for black vs white people in the same income brackets the figures would not be so disparate.

I’d agree with your suspicions.

I wonder if you’d see a higher proportion of violent, gang-related crime in similar income BAME communities to similar income White communities where you might see less violent gang crime and more ‘petty’ crime - burglary, theft etc...

I would disagree. Sadly I don't have figures to back it up, just anecdotal evidence from several serving police officers (one of whom is black incidentally). The BAME community is very small in Devon, but the offending rate disproportionately high.
My sister belongs to Warwickshire constabulary and is quite sure that the highest incidence of "hate crime" is within the Asian Community, and is directed towards blacks as well as whites.

[Willie]

I wonder if it would take much longer than that for the ripples created by getting rid of any innocently meant but potentially offensive, or inappropriate team names, mascots etc... to reach the much more prominent issues like police brutality, or board inequality etc...

Why not do both, or all, start at both ends? ‘Ripples’ don’t generally need to be ‘reversed’. They tend to either die out or go on to make waves that bring about greater change. The ‘Swing low’ issue will likely quickly run it’s course, the tide against ‘Indian’ mascots is likely unstoppable now.

So would we be better off actually tackling the major issues faced today and working our way downwards to those issues which, whilst potentially offensive, aren't actively preventing people from gaining promotions, or being involved in various sports, or simply that don't threaten peoples lives?

There is a limit to what each of us individually can do. Speaking out against a racial stereotype being promoted by the sport I love is something I, or any individual, can do. This is the distinction between being passively ‘not racist’ and being pro-actively ‘anti-racist’.

For the record, and sorry to get all serious again, I actually think ‘Indian’ mascots are a major issue. There is plenty of evidence and data that indicate that these dehumanizing stereotypes do in fact threaten peoples lives, through the poverty and social injustice that comes with inequality. LINK

I just don't see the same use of condoned casual racism amongst 'my' generation and those after me.  Nor do I see it in my parents generation either.

There’s a counter petition that states “The usage of the Native American in the Exeter Chiefs logo and brand is to honour and respect their cultural beliefs.”, signed by a sizeable number of people.

They are perfectly entitled to their opinion, of course, but the idea that Exeter Rugby Club and their fans have the authority to tell an ethnic minority what is respectful and honourable to their culture, regardless of whether they agree or not, is a pretty good indicator of how prevalent casual racism still is. 

In 2013, at a symposium on the use of Native American imagery in sports, U.S. Army colonel and Native American, John Orendorff, put it this way:
"I often feel that the underlying point of these 'honors' is that my Indian heritage is owned by others. The message I'm constantly getting is: 'We own you. We will define how we honor you. Don't tell us whether you like it or not, because we own you.”

[Willie]

I’d agree with your suspicions.

I wonder if you’d see a higher proportion of violent, gang-related crime in similar income BAME communities to similar income White communities where you might see less violent gang crime and more ‘petty’ crime - burglary, theft etc...

I too agree with Vespula Vulgaris’ suspicions.

When poverty, environment, educational equality etc. is factored in to the statistics, race becomes a non-issue. The conclusion that the colour of a persons skin, regardless of other factors, makes someone predisposed to crime is a racist myth.
Are you sure you ‘don't see the same same use of condoned casual racism amongst 'my' generation'? 

[Heathen]

I would like to see the numbers as to the ethnicity of who perpetrate murder and serious injury, whether by stabbing, shooting or other heinous means. If we have the facts, we can then make a rational judgement.