Exeter supporters petition for club to drop 'racist' Native American branding.

[RogerE]

Throughout the years the police have always "profiled" who to stop and search, based on the current crime statistics in their area.

When I was in my early 20s (the later 1960s) I had long hair and a beard (I still have the latter but not much of the former), and drove a 1958 MG Magnette car. I was a research microbiologist and travelled between my home in Buckinghamshire to where I worked in Surrey for 2 years. During that period I was "stopped and searched" 98 times, once being forced off the Leatherhead bypass by 2 Surrey police cars. It's amazingt how the police could make the word "Sir" sound as though it was spelt "Cur".

I accepted that it was because of my appearance, and the type of crime and perpetrators that the police were looking for.

Surely the same is true now.

[matelot22]

Dear Matelot and Hymenoptra, please do not leave. I (and many others, I think) enjoy your contributions and your rugby knowledge  very much, and also your humour; if you leave you will be greatly missed.  I - for one - like you both  and would certainly miss you a lot.  A spat over differences of any sort is not worth throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  Just let it drain away, and avoid like topics -  should they arise again.  Believe me, life is far far too short.  Move on, yes, but don't go away.  (I hope this doesn't read 'all Pollyann-ish')

Wonky, I only meant that I no longer wished to contribute to that particular thread, not the site as a whole! As I said, I'm chuffed to bits that we had that conversation and nobody spat their dummy out. I've not seen that anywhere else on social media over the last few months. I wouldn't want to leave a place where sane discussion can take place!

[WonkyWasp]

Hooray! So glad that I  misread that!

[matelot22]

Hooray! So glad that I  misread that!

Did you get the PM I sent you weeks ago?

[InBetweenWasp]

Throughout the years the police have always "profiled" who to stop and search, based on the current crime statistics in their area.

When I was in my early 20s (the later 1960s) I had long hair and a beard (I still have the latter but not much of the former), and drove a 1958 MG Magnette car. I was a research microbiologist and travelled between my home in Buckinghamshire to where I worked in Surrey for 2 years. During that period I was "stopped and searched" 98 times, once being forced off the Leatherhead bypass by 2 Surrey police cars. It's amazingt how the police could make the word "Sir" sound as though it was spelt "Cur".

I accepted that it was because of my appearance, and the type of crime and perpetrators that the police were looking for.

Surely the same is true now.

Jeez... stopped once a week for two years.  That's mental.  Imagine trying to explain that one to your boss

"Why are you late?"
"Got stopped by the Police for a random stop and search"
"Pull the other one, you used that one last week.  And the week before that.  And the week before that..."

[matelot22]

Throughout the years the police have always "profiled" who to stop and search, based on the current crime statistics in their area.

When I was in my early 20s (the later 1960s) I had long hair and a beard (I still have the latter but not much of the former), and drove a 1958 MG Magnette car. I was a research microbiologist and travelled between my home in Buckinghamshire to where I worked in Surrey for 2 years. During that period I was "stopped and searched" 98 times, once being forced off the Leatherhead bypass by 2 Surrey police cars. It's amazingt how the police could make the word "Sir" sound as though it was spelt "Cur".

I accepted that it was because of my appearance, and the type of crime and perpetrators that the police were looking for.

Surely the same is true now.

Jeez... stopped once a week for two years.  That's mental.  Imagine trying to explain that one to your boss

"Why are you late?"
"Got stopped by the Police for a random stop and search"
"Pull the other one, you used that one last week.  And the week before that.  And the week before that..."

I read a "Viz, top tip" yesterday. "Pretend you're an Olympic athlete by speeding on the wrong side of the road and failing to stop for police." Made me chuckle and kind of relevant to this thread I suppose.....

[Neils]

You may think it funny but I have similar experiences. I grew up in Edinburgh and was not regularly but at times lifted from buses on my way home. I did look unkempt at about midnight but had a profession. The number of times I ended up in a Police Station to answer "questions" was embarrassing (usually muggings or "attempted murder" (I think this to frighten you)). I even got picked up one night then again the next morning to get to the station to find the desk sergeant telling the detective that they had the wrong one. Remember this is pre-computers and mobile phones. The thing that pee'd me off the most was getting pulled from a bus with it being the last one. "No sir we are not a taxi service" is imprinted on my brain. 
I always thought it was sensible to be polite, say yes and no sir and be helpful. However, the change in attitude when asked do you have a job and you can reply quietly what you do will also stick with me.

This thread is too long and I said to myself I would not get involved. Ho hum.

[matelot22]

You may think it funny but I have similar experiences. I grew up in Edinburgh and was not regularly but at times lifted from buses on my way home. I did look unkempt at about midnight but had a profession. The number of times I ended up in a Police Station to answer "questions" was embarrassing (usually muggings or "attempted murder" (I think this to frighten you)). I even got pick up one night then again the next morning to get to the station to find the desk sergeant telling the detective that they had the wrong one. Remember this is pre-computers and mobile phones. The thing that pee'd me off the most was getting pulled from a bus with it being the last one. "No sir we are not a taxi service" is imprinted on my brain. 
I always thought it was sensible to be polite, say yes and no sir and be helpful. However, the change in attitude when asked do you have a job and you can reply quietly what you do will also stick with me.

This thread is too long and I said to myself I would not get involved. Ho hum.

 When I was a young sailor (and a very fit young man) I used to run everywhere as I couldn't afford taxis. When on leave, after seeing my girlfriend home I would run back to my house. As a young man running during the early hours of the morning, I too was frequently stopped by police. I always found polite cooperation and actually stopping in the first place were more than enough to see me allowed on my merry way and I have even been lucky enough to be given a lift home on a couple of occasions.

[13thWarrior]

Ethnicity has nothing to do with the decision to buy house, fail your exams or forge a salary producing career.  Your not more likely or less likely to do any of these based on your skin color, its your decision as an individual or your own personal drivers, so the stats don't belong in this thread.
Like I said, if this was the 50's then your statement has credibility, today, sorry but no.

Unfortunately I don't think those statements are true, or perhaps are true but not in the way meant. Poverty, consistent low level and more direct harassment, fewer positive role models in industry, and a higher level of care responsibilities can all work to gain qualifications and earn a living, and are all more prevalent for BAME people than whites. Yes there are still black people who are very successful, but across the population there are a range of factors which work to make it harder to succeed overall. Do you really believe that systematic and long-term differences in employment rates or crime are down to free choice made by individuals?

[13thWarrior]

More related to the subject, BBC article feat. both sides: Exeter Chiefs fans at odds over use of Native American branding - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/53334193

While I'm fine with people choosing to argue that the branding is not overtly offensive (happy to argue with them), I do think it is disingenuous to claim that the branding actively "honours" Native Americans, given the total lack of links or agreements between Exeter and any Native American nations...

[WonkyWasp]

Matelot ...  I got the message but  failed to get my head round how to send an answer. Many apologies.  I'm just not tech.y alas.  If I could sort it I would but I finally gave up - so sorry. Apologies also to Heathen - for the  same reasons. Our daughter or g-son could probably sort it but they all live over an hours drive away and I don't drive and Sir is on 'short distance' drives. 

[matelot22]

Matelot ...  I got the message but  failed to get my head round how to send an answer. Many apologies.  I'm just not tech.y alas.  If I could sort it I would but I finally gave up - so sorry. Apologies also to Heathen - for the  same reasons. Our daughter or g-son could probably sort it but they all live over an hours drive away and I don't drive and Sir is on 'short distance' drives.

Hahaha, bloody WAFU's!!!! No worries Wonky, it is pretty simple though, just click the "reply" option then "send message"

[matelot22]

Ethnicity has nothing to do with the decision to buy house, fail your exams or forge a salary producing career.  Your not more likely or less likely to do any of these based on your skin color, its your decision as an individual or your own personal drivers, so the stats don't belong in this thread.
Like I said, if this was the 50's then your statement has credibility, today, sorry but no.

Unfortunately I don't think those statements are true, or perhaps are true but not in the way meant. Poverty, consistent low level and more direct harassment, fewer positive role models in industry, and a higher level of care responsibilities can all work to gain qualifications and earn a living, and are all more prevalent for BAME people than whites. Yes there are still black people who are very successful, but across the population there are a range of factors which work to make it harder to succeed overall. Do you really believe that systematic and long-term differences in employment rates or crime are down to free choice made by individuals?

I didn't want to carry on in this thread, but can't help myself. Why does a role model have to be the same ethnicity as oneself? When I first started boxing, my biggest inspiration was Marvin Hagler. His no nonsense, consummate professional approach has always impressed me, no fancy stuff, just get the job done. He remains one of my greatest sporting heroes to this day. My greatest role model when I joined the navy was a southern Irish Catholic chap. He was the first Chief that I worked for that I felt actually wanted to teach me about engineering and cared about my personal and professional development. I have never once questioned the race, colour or nationality of people I come into contact with. People are defined by their character, not colour, race, religion, gay, straight, rich or poor or whatever.

[13thWarrior]

Ethnicity has nothing to do with the decision to buy house, fail your exams or forge a salary producing career.  Your not more likely or less likely to do any of these based on your skin color, its your decision as an individual or your own personal drivers, so the stats don't belong in this thread.
Like I said, if this was the 50's then your statement has credibility, today, sorry but no.

Unfortunately I don't think those statements are true, or perhaps are true but not in the way meant. Poverty, consistent low level and more direct harassment, fewer positive role models in industry, and a higher level of care responsibilities can all work to gain qualifications and earn a living, and are all more prevalent for BAME people than whites. Yes there are still black people who are very successful, but across the population there are a range of factors which work to make it harder to succeed overall. Do you really believe that systematic and long-term differences in employment rates or crime are down to free choice made by individuals?

I didn't want to carry on in this thread, but can't help myself. Why does a role model have to be the same ethnicity as oneself? When I first started boxing, my biggest inspiration was Marvin Hagler. His no nonsense, consummate professional approach has always impressed me, no fancy stuff, just get the job done. He remains one of my greatest sporting heroes to this day. My greatest role model when I joined the navy was a southern Irish Catholic chap. He was the first Chief that I worked for that I felt actually wanted to teach me about engineering and cared about my personal and professional development. I have never once questioned the race, colour or nationality of people I come into contact with. People are defined by their character, not colour, race, religion, gay, straight, rich or poor or whatever.

I completely agree that someone can be a role model regardless of ethnicity, gender, or whatever, but there are issues with seeing yourself in a position based on there being other successful people like you. Many black South Africans (and black Brits no doubt) for example consider rugby a white sport because they mostly see whites playing it. So they are less likely to pursue it.

[matelot22]

Ethnicity has nothing to do with the decision to buy house, fail your exams or forge a salary producing career.  Your not more likely or less likely to do any of these based on your skin color, its your decision as an individual or your own personal drivers, so the stats don't belong in this thread.
Like I said, if this was the 50's then your statement has credibility, today, sorry but no.

Unfortunately I don't think those statements are true, or perhaps are true but not in the way meant. Poverty, consistent low level and more direct harassment, fewer positive role models in industry, and a higher level of care responsibilities can all work to gain qualifications and earn a living, and are all more prevalent for BAME people than whites. Yes there are still black people who are very successful, but across the population there are a range of factors which work to make it harder to succeed overall. Do you really believe that systematic and long-term differences in employment rates or crime are down to free choice made by individuals?

I didn't want to carry on in this thread, but can't help myself. Why does a role model have to be the same ethnicity as oneself? When I first started boxing, my biggest inspiration was Marvin Hagler. His no nonsense, consummate professional approach has always impressed me, no fancy stuff, just get the job done. He remains one of my greatest sporting heroes to this day. My greatest role model when I joined the navy was a southern Irish Catholic chap. He was the first Chief that I worked for that I felt actually wanted to teach me about engineering and cared about my personal and professional development. I have never once questioned the race, colour or nationality of people I come into contact with. People are defined by their character, not colour, race, religion, gay, straight, rich or poor or whatever.

I completely agree that someone can be a role model regardless of ethnicity, gender, or whatever, but there are issues with seeing yourself in a position based on there being other successful people like you. Many black South Africans (and black Brits no doubt) for example consider rugby a white sport because they mostly see whites playing it. So they are less likely to pursue it.

Agree re South Africa, albeit, that is an entirely different situation to what we face in the UK. I'd challenge your view with regard to the UK though as perhaps being out of date? I'd say definitely so during amateur days when "the old school tie" prevailed, but with the advent of professionalism, I think the game has opened up across the board. As a Northerner, I never played union until I joined up, I always regarded it as a Southern public school boy sport.