england

[wasps]

Are the RFU happy with a world cup final, if it's preceded and followed by multiple poor 6 Nations and middling results against the southern hemisphere teams?

[mike909]

RWC minimum is I suppose a SF. And that did for Lancaster - who's 80% 6Ns record hasn't been exceeded. But in the 6Ns England ought to be 1st or 2nd and v occasionally 3rd...

5th, twice, and a long losing streak - in 2018 - isn't good enough,

As for the 2019 RWC, it wasn't as if we were imperious in the tournament. Flat and dull in the pool, beat the Aussies and then had our good game.....And came out of the RWC almost deliberately not wanting to evolve....or use the Autumn Cup to experiment. Our 2019 6Ns win was just par for the course and told us very little - a bit like 2017.....before 2021/2018 seasons which were inept.

It's as if Jones has to demonstrate how clever he is more than seemingly have any sort of overarching plan...Remember in 2018 6Ns our centres included Ben Te'O....

And as for change....we surely need to be establishing a "now"

[HDAWG]

Our 2019 6Ns win was just par for the course and told us very little - a bit like 2017.....before 2021/2018 seasons which were inept.

We didn't win 2019 6N. We looked like the best team during that 6N, but didn't win after loss to Wales and Draw to Scots. The rest you're bang on about however.

[wasps]

Personally I'd rather see England win games and do it either emphatically or with some style.

To some degree, I'm not bothered if it's 6 Nations, summer tour, AIs or world cup.


I'm sure the players go out attempting to win every game, but it so often feels like they're hamstrung due to some master plan.
Well, I say, fuck the master plan... Just go out and enjoy yourselves every game

[hopwood]

Personally I'd rather see England win games and do it either emphatically or with some style.

To some degree, I'm not bothered if it's 6 Nations, summer tour, AIs or world cup.


I'm sure the players go out attempting to win every game, but it so often feels like they're hamstrung due to some master plan.
Well, I say, fuck the master plan... Just go out and enjoy yourselves every game

Hear, hear.

[Bloke in North Dorset]

Economics 101: incentives matter.

Make finishing 1st or 2nd in the 6N and (re)creating fortress Twickenham in the AIs as the priority and the WC will look after itself.  Winning teams are capable of winning anywhere, any time.

Make the WC the priority and the 6N and AIs become incidental. The problem with relying on the WC is that anything can happen in the knockout stages, no matter how well you play, and the all the 6N and AI per performances were for nought if you get knocked out in the QF.

[Nigel Med]

From my perspective the most depressing issue was the atrocious quality of the match having just watched Ireland give a master class on high tempo, 15 man rugby. They're playing an All Black style game but better than the All Blacks (on current form). The pace and speed at the breakdown was remarkable and the passing precision from quick ball almost impossible to defend. Committing the absolute minimum to the breakdown with forwards and backs equally buying in to the attacking patterns and executing extremely well. Everyone is saying that Wales were poor but I believe Ireland on that form would have comfortably beaten anyone.

Then we were "treated" to Scotland v England and it was so pedestrian it looked like a pair of pub teams vets by comparison. England had a fairly well drilled pack who dominated but were clueless at how to get over the line if the penalty they were hoping for didn't materialise. It was so evident at that last scrum that they were terrified of giving the ball to the backs if they didn't win a penalty and as it proved, pass to Slade, pass to Daly who inevitably got turned over, game lost, no surprise. Scotland, of course, celebrate like they've just won the World Cup but if they expect to win against anyone else after being dominated for 80% of the match they're dreaming. They were one brain fart by a hooker away from being comfortably beaten. Ireland and France and possibly Wales with home advantage will beat them if their forwards can't improve dramatically and win a bit of possession since all three have a far better coached backline than England. The least worse team won that match.

I would predict Scotland and England battling out for who finishes 4th and 5th unless one or other improves drastically. England have a moderately better chance as they should comfortably beat Italy and will hopefully be able to reinvigorate their attack (If Eddie allows them to actually keep hold of the ball). Scotland have a very difficult away match in Cardiff next in front of a passionate Welsh support against a team with a lot to prove so I suspect Wales will win. Historically it's not been a happy hunting ground for the Scots

[Andywasp50]

From my perspective the most depressing issue was the atrocious quality of the match having just watched Ireland give a master class on high tempo, 15 man rugby. They're playing an All Black style game but better than the All Blacks (on current form). The pace and speed at the breakdown was remarkable and the passing precision from quick ball almost impossible to defend. Committing the absolute minimum to the breakdown with forwards and backs equally buying in to the attacking patterns and executing extremely well. Everyone is saying that Wales were poor but I believe Ireland on that form would have comfortably beaten anyone.

Then we were "treated" to Scotland v England and it was so pedestrian it looked like a pair of pub teams vets by comparison. England had a fairly well drilled pack who dominated but were clueless at how to get over the line if the penalty they were hoping for didn't materialise. It was so evident at that last scrum that they were terrified of giving the ball to the backs if they didn't win a penalty and as it proved, pass to Slade, pass to Daly who inevitably got turned over, game lost, no surprise. Scotland, of course, celebrate like they've just won the World Cup but if they expect to win against anyone else after being dominated for 80% of the match they're dreaming. They were one brain fart by a hooker away from being comfortably beaten. Ireland and France and possibly Wales with home advantage will beat them if their forwards can't improve dramatically and win a bit of possession since all three have a far better coached backline than England. The least worse team won that match.

I would predict Scotland and England battling out for who finishes 4th and 5th unless one or other improves drastically. England have a moderately better chance as they should comfortably beat Italy and will hopefully be able to reinvigorate their attack (If Eddie allows them to actually keep hold of the ball). Scotland have a very difficult away match in Cardiff next in front of a passionate Welsh support against a team with a lot to prove so I suspect Wales will win. Historically it's not been a happy hunting ground for the Scots

I agree with a lot of this. On Saturday we actually took very little from our mediocre visits into the Scotland 22 - red zone conversion was poor - but that's because quite a lot of it was kicking away possession. Apart from Smith's try the possession and threat we offered in their 22 was rubbish. We spent a lot of the game going from side to side because Youngs was slow and we lacked the nous to hit shoulders or gaps to open up space.

The fact that Scotland needed a penalty try and some very dodgy reffing from O'Keefe in those four scrums at the end isn't a great reflection on them. I don't think Wales are particularly great and Ireland are the outstanding side in the competition - it's theirs to lose in my opinion. France are a good bet but always seem to blow it somehow. I think whether we finish 4th or 5th depends on our game with Wales - and that just isn't good enough given our resources.

I get the feeling that the RFU is putting all its eggs in one basket and trying to win the World Cup at the expense of the 6 Nations, but it only takes one bad game for four year's work and planning to get undone.

I also get the feeling we don't have much chance of either given the French ref's disgraceful performance against Wales last year, and O'Keefe this year (he's got previous with England and Jones), that it's too much of a mountain to climb for England to get a level playing field. Sorry, i know it's not rugby to criticise officials and i probably sound like Alex Ferguson, but lightening shouldn't be allowed to strike twice like it has for us. Had we been any other side I don't doubt the scrum penalty would have been correctly awarded at the end. Even Gregor Townsend admitted the only thing he was thinking was pondering if we were going take the kick or kick for touch!

[InBetweenWasp]

The fact that Scotland needed a penalty try

Think this is harsh on Scotland.  They didn't need a Penalty Try, one was awarded to them as if it wasn't for LCD deliberately knocking on into touch they would have scored a try.  In that sense, the try was happening whether claimed by Graham and scored, or by Penalty Try because we effectively cheated to prevent the try.

Was a close game and will be an incredibly frustrating one for England to have lost.  At the time, I was pretty happy with the selection.  But too many what-ifs now.

Would we have been better swapping Marchant and Daly around? Slade at 12 was fine for me, but i'd also be open to seeing Atkinson/Slade as a 12/13 combo.  Nowell for Malins would be my other swap.  I'm happy with Malins at Full-Back to open up the game towards the end, but not one the Wing.  Mind you, with May/Watson fit i'd doubt we'd be seeing Malins in the 23.

Would like to see Dombrant start over Simmonds with Sam to come on later in the game if need be. 

And then any of Care, Robson, Quirke or Spencer ahead of Youngs and Randall.

[DGP Wasp]

And then any of Care, Robson, Quirke or Spencer ahead of Youngs and Randall.

I'd add Porter, Wolstenholme, Andy Gommarsall, Matt Dawson, Dewi Morris, Steve Smith, Nigel Melvile, Nigel Starmer-Smith and my elderly mother to the list of those I'd like to see start ahead of Youngs!

[Rossm]

And then any of Care, Robson, Quirke or Spencer ahead of Youngs and Randall.

I'd add Porter, Wolstenholme, Andy Gommarsall, Matt Dawson, Dewi Morris, Steve Smith, Nigel Melvile, Nigel Starmer-Smith and my elderly mother to the list of those I'd like to see start ahead of Youngs!

And don't forget Dickie Jeeps

[Lwasp]

Think this is harsh on Scotland.  They didn't need a Penalty Try, one was awarded to them as if it wasn't for LCD deliberately knocking on into touch they would have scored a try.  In that sense, the try was happening whether claimed by Graham and scored, or by Penalty Try because we effectively cheated to prevent the try.

LCD got both hands to the ball, he could have comfortably caught it. In that case a try was not happening. Absolutely right to award the pen try given LCD's action, but it didn't have to be a try at all.

[bigad82]

The basket case of the RFU haven't the money to get rid of weird Eddie.
I think we are stuck with him.

[DGP Wasp]

The basket case of the RFU haven't the money to get rid of weird Eddie.
I think we are stuck with him.

Sadly this appears to be the bottom line.  RFU completely painted themselves into a corner by giving him an extended contract that they can't afford to buy him out of, and seemingly with no clause in there to allow them to jettison him if results don't meet some clear (and high) expectations.

[Rossm]

The basket case of the RFU haven't the money to get rid of weird Eddie.
I think we are stuck with him.

Sadly this appears to be the bottom line.  RFU completely painted themselves into a corner by giving him an extended contract that they can't afford to buy him out of, and seemingly with no clause in there to allow them to jettison him if results don't meet some clear (and high) expectations.

Have the RFU ever tried to run a piss up in a brewery?