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Messages - BarossaD

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Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Financial Doings by our Judges
« on: December 13, 2022, 09:35:42 AM »
Interesting Barossa! How on earth have the auditors passed this as a going concern?

A good question - there isn’t a huge amount of explanation in the accounts nor is it called out for attention in the audit report, so hard to tell on what basis. While that isn’t massively unusual - it’s a sensitive topic - I would expect a firm with marginal net assets, big losses and no obvious source of further funding to provide some explanation.

One other thought occurred to me - 13 P shares at around £10m each compared to a valuation on the brand of £850m sounds like a bit of a disconnect.

To be clear, there isn’t a clear sign of anything wrong in there, but I did have a number of questions.


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Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Financial Doings by our Judges
« on: December 12, 2022, 08:02:52 PM »
Perhaps unsurprisingly it's not 100% clear, but a few comments - excuse me if I lapse into accounting speak:

  • Corporate structure is Prem Rugby Holdings LLP owns Prem Rugby Holdings Limited, which owns Prem Rugby Limited (all 100% owners)
    The most meaningful numbers are probably the LLP ones as they are consolidated (include the assets and liabilities of all the above)
    Partners in LLP are PRL Investor Limited (owned by clubs) and Cobalto (a CVC entity I thinkk but a bit opaque in terms of owners IMO). I can't tell their respective interest - 27% was the interest quoted at the time but I am not sure how that was calculated and whether it included the debt (see below)
    CVC put £200m into the Prem - 100 in equity into the LLP and 100 into the the holding company in the form of a loan (12% interest!) - not sure of the reasons for this - suspect a mix of tax and security on underlying assets
    The bank loan of 17m is at LIBOR plus 2.25%. That cost will up with recent base rate increases
    The accounting for in LLP for the investment is quite unusual in my experience. What they have effectively done is said that the assets acquired were worth lots but were acquired for peanuts (£100) and deferred the 'gain' on sale. That makes the balance sheet smaller (less assets) and will give profits a boost over the next 10 years - albeit not in cash. I have seem similar transactions accounted for quite differently but admittedly am not an expert on the accounting framework being used here
    The valuation of the Prem brand at 850m is interesting. I await the 2022 accounts with interest given that it's lost money hand over fist since acquisition (abeit COVID) *and* Cobalto has written its investment down in 2022
    Preparing accounts on a going concern basis given that it has pretty marginal assets and a thumping loss is also interesting without some more explanation why
    There is some comment in the trading company's accounts about the losses it started to incur beginning in 2019 being just down to accounting trickery. It's hard to tell tbh and that sort of comment is usually frowned on (at least by accountants...) An operating cash outflow is rarely a good sign

Overall, a moderately complex structure and IMO not the most transparent accounts I have seen, albeit I usually deal with public companies. COVID will have hit results badly but there looks to be a significant debt burden to service with a shrinking club base! 2022 accounts aren't due until March but I'll read them with interest when they get filed.

I didn't do any digging on the directors but was interested to see that Jason Whittingham (he of Wuss (in)fame) was a director of PRL.

And lastly, I hate the list formatting on this site

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Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Financial Doings by our Judges
« on: December 12, 2022, 10:32:40 AM »
As an accounting geek, I feel the urge to grab these and see what's going on...

4
Short term thinking in the extreme - large areas of the country without any Prem (and hence England) representation or hope thereof. Not a recipe for encouraging a new generation of players.

5
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Teams Up for Saints - Vinny Starts.
« on: October 10, 2022, 08:42:13 AM »
And did anyone else hear the ''Announcer'' try to lead a chant?  Just once.  And did he really really  say ''Ole Ole Ole'' instead of ''Allez Allez Allez''?  It sounded very like it.

Yeah, it was a half-arsed effort - I felt embarrassed for him. someone in the east stand did a lot better immediately afterwards

6
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Wasps facing relegation
« on: October 09, 2022, 07:17:05 PM »
Can more than one club be relegated from the Prem? Either that expands the Championship or they end up relegating more, which I can’t see happening.

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Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Match Thread
« on: September 24, 2022, 06:50:57 AM »

On the flip side of replacements.
If bath had kept Dunn on the pitch, I think they'd have won


Terrible hair though

I briefly thought Bath were playing Bill Bailey at hooker

8
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Supportive Tweet from Coveentry Rugby
« on: September 23, 2022, 08:04:14 PM »
Classy. I’d love to see closer links between the two clubs. Partly as Butts Park is 10 minutes walk for me :)

9
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Wasps Stuff for Sale
« on: September 22, 2022, 07:47:25 PM »
Forgot what this thread was and thought someone was trying to tout the CBSA around 😬

10
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Worcester
« on: September 04, 2022, 04:44:33 PM »
Premiership clubs rack up more than £500MILLION in debt https://mol.im/a/11177209 via https://dailym.ai/android

Not looking good across the board.

Another article has the LI owner offering to give away the club for free.

Total debt without total assets is pretty meaningless - I’d be interested to see a complete table. But anyone that describes deferred tax as a ‘tax debt’ (it’s not) isn’t that savvy in that department.

11
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Sky Blues Club Update.
« on: September 02, 2022, 04:45:55 PM »
Whatever else we think about them we should be impressed by their mastery of PR.

Well yes I can see that - except I can also seen a huge flaw in the divisive messaging.

The constant animosity and divisive nit-picking-angle of all the Sky Blues v Wasps comments (here and in the local and National press) mean that any keen soccer fans amongst the Wasps faithful will know they are unwelcome at a Sky Blues match. So they don’t go.

So what’s the cost of that?

It’s hard to put a figure on it but how many extra bums on seats has this negative PR cost? What would the Sky Blues give for another 2000 per match? And vice versa for Wasps.

I’ve always felt Coventry is a sports mad city. As somebody who loves watching rugby and soccer it makes me very sad for the city. No team is going hit it’s full potential until somebody shows true leadership and solves this issue. I thought maybe Mr Hoffman May have a told to play in this?

We should be realising we are from the same place and cheering all the teams based in Coventry. Not verbally at each other’s throats the whole time. And for us both to have enough dosh to make great signings and show the country what sporting jewels Coventry has got 💥

All of this

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Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Stooke Tweet
« on: May 21, 2022, 08:27:50 PM »
Just trialled her with a mini sponge oval ball. Unfortunately bit of a Mike Brown- catches ok but won’t pass and scowls a lot.

First genuine laugh of the weekend - thank you

13
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Re: Stooke Tweet
« on: May 21, 2022, 04:51:21 PM »
Good news. He’ll be back in the reckoning for the start of next season.

Are we still talking about the cat here? 🤔

14
Maybe hasks should have answered in a better way, but can understand his frustration at a pretty pathetic point scoring question.
   After all no one mentions Ellen White for goals scored in lists or Fara Williams for most caps when talking about football.

I imagine the asker was similarly frustrated. Maybe it was intended as a genuine question.

15
...t when it was pointed out they acted in entirely the wrong way. Rather than take it on the chin, Hask doubled down...

Precisely. Acknowledge, set the record straight, and move on.

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