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31
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Wasps say to look out for some good news at 12
« on: March 20, 2019, 10:40:26 AM »
https://twitter.com/WaspsRugby/status/1108316831033507846
3 bombs on the tweet as well? A clue no doubt. Maybe 3 signings? Or related to players name?
3 bombs on the tweet as well? A clue no doubt. Maybe 3 signings? Or related to players name?
32
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Alfie Barbaery - but not as you know him...
« on: March 19, 2019, 12:46:28 PM »
Lining up in the schools plate final (15.40 kickoff)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qweromUb01Q
Why not as you know him? He's lining up at 13...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qweromUb01Q
Why not as you know him? He's lining up at 13...
33
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Ruck marks on the Ire Eng game
« on: February 06, 2019, 08:49:44 AM »
Some of you might remember my ruck marks from before, so I did it for the Ire Eng game for the English pack.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zRLrpJWclQgNbIp9NrEzmZe77gKtOtZ8H6XeJ9tlzIA/edit?usp=sharing
Final Tables tab is probably the bit most people will really want to look at, there should be notes for the columns explaining what it's supposed to show.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zRLrpJWclQgNbIp9NrEzmZe77gKtOtZ8H6XeJ9tlzIA/edit?usp=sharing
Final Tables tab is probably the bit most people will really want to look at, there should be notes for the columns explaining what it's supposed to show.
34
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Launchbury off?
« on: January 24, 2019, 11:58:04 AM »
Rugbypass suggesting Sale could be making an offer. Also suggests he's only on £270k at the moment, which I really really struggle to believe, since we've managed to beat off Sarries a couple of times in the past.
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/launchbury-moves-step-closer-to-sale-switch
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/launchbury-moves-step-closer-to-sale-switch
35
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Fuel for Hughes is off fire.
« on: December 28, 2018, 07:04:56 PM »
Apparently alapati leiuas mum posted on her Facebook that Hughes has signed for 2 years for Bristol.
36
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Pecking order?
« on: December 02, 2018, 04:25:11 PM »
Given the depth we've shown, what now do we reckon is the pecking order? A lot of positions are quite muddy I reckon.
1. McIntyre? Harris? Mullan?
I can't call it. I think Mullan is probably 3rd choice now, but Harris has been really impressive, does he pip McIntyre? I think McI keeps it for now, due to his handling ability.
2. Taylor? Cruse?
I think Taylor takes this, but it's far from clear cut.
3. JCW? Brookes? Stuart?
Stuart probably isn't first choice, but I reckon he's pushing. Brookes is looking like a very different beast to his Saints days, he's really dominating scrums, which is huge from a tighthead. JCW probably carries a bit more, and handles too, but it's a big call to separate them.
4. Launchbury.
5 Rowlands? Gaskell?
This I think is a bit horses for courses. Rain? Forwards team? Lineout options in the backrow? Rowlands. Need more lineout options, better handling and mobility, Gaskell.
6. Willis? Shields? Carr?
I know Wilis has been injured, but no one can deny his ability last season. Shields is still settling, but is a very good player. Carr give us a real attacking option.
7. Young? Willis? Carr?
Probably Young to be honest, but if everyone's fit? Again, maybe horses for courses.
8. Hughes? Carr?
OK, Hughes playing like he did against Sarries, I think he's in the shirt, but I'd not be devastated with Carr.
Honourable mentions for Reider and Willis Jr.
9. Robson. 21 Hampson? Simpson?
I think Dai may well not bother fighting hard to keep Simpson, with Hampson going so well, and Porter look very comfortable too, neither would I to be honest.
10. Sops.
The more time he has, the better he looks in my mind.
11/14 Daly? Bassett? Neal? Campagnaro?
This begins to show my opinion of Daly. I don't think he's good enough to be our 13 to be honest, which seems odd.
12. MLB? Gopperth?
The longer MLB plays in the shirt, the better he looks. Gopperth offers a bit more control, but MLB more in attack I feel. Probably prefer Gopps defence though.
13. JdJ? Campagnaro? Daly?
Campagnaro is new, but there's no denying his ability at 13. JdJ is the man for me, his defence offers us so much, he's also far from a crowbar in attack. Daly has the pace, but I think wing is suiting him more these days to be honest.
15. WLR
It's clear for me he's the best option we have there.
1. McIntyre? Harris? Mullan?
I can't call it. I think Mullan is probably 3rd choice now, but Harris has been really impressive, does he pip McIntyre? I think McI keeps it for now, due to his handling ability.
2. Taylor? Cruse?
I think Taylor takes this, but it's far from clear cut.
3. JCW? Brookes? Stuart?
Stuart probably isn't first choice, but I reckon he's pushing. Brookes is looking like a very different beast to his Saints days, he's really dominating scrums, which is huge from a tighthead. JCW probably carries a bit more, and handles too, but it's a big call to separate them.
4. Launchbury.
5 Rowlands? Gaskell?
This I think is a bit horses for courses. Rain? Forwards team? Lineout options in the backrow? Rowlands. Need more lineout options, better handling and mobility, Gaskell.
6. Willis? Shields? Carr?
I know Wilis has been injured, but no one can deny his ability last season. Shields is still settling, but is a very good player. Carr give us a real attacking option.
7. Young? Willis? Carr?
Probably Young to be honest, but if everyone's fit? Again, maybe horses for courses.
8. Hughes? Carr?
OK, Hughes playing like he did against Sarries, I think he's in the shirt, but I'd not be devastated with Carr.
Honourable mentions for Reider and Willis Jr.
9. Robson. 21 Hampson? Simpson?
I think Dai may well not bother fighting hard to keep Simpson, with Hampson going so well, and Porter look very comfortable too, neither would I to be honest.
10. Sops.
The more time he has, the better he looks in my mind.
11/14 Daly? Bassett? Neal? Campagnaro?
This begins to show my opinion of Daly. I don't think he's good enough to be our 13 to be honest, which seems odd.
12. MLB? Gopperth?
The longer MLB plays in the shirt, the better he looks. Gopperth offers a bit more control, but MLB more in attack I feel. Probably prefer Gopps defence though.
13. JdJ? Campagnaro? Daly?
Campagnaro is new, but there's no denying his ability at 13. JdJ is the man for me, his defence offers us so much, he's also far from a crowbar in attack. Daly has the pace, but I think wing is suiting him more these days to be honest.
15. WLR
It's clear for me he's the best option we have there.
37
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Do I even want to open up Drunken Wasps?
« on: May 19, 2018, 06:19:11 PM »
I stopped watching at 71? minutes. Not really going to post much on the game now, but just want to know if I should even bother opening up rugbynetwork, or is it full of Dai Out, fire the whole team, JP Doyle is the worst ref in the history of the world etc?
38
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Sale (sail away, sail away etcetc)
« on: March 28, 2018, 08:26:02 AM »
Always hate this game. Sale do special training just for this game, just to target us, and the fans absolutely adore it when they beat us (which they have done so with annoying regularity).
Hopefully we won't lose any more players to injury! And a return for Taylor would be welcome.
Dai may know, but if Marty Moore was just bad, rather than Cruse being shattered and therefore reducing the strength of our scrum, I'd be tempted to bring Stuart back onto the bench.
Our attack still looked good against tigers, and I like the fact we tried to hold onto the ball, even if we need to pay attention when it's in our half. We do need to obviously finish chances a bit better, but I don't think we'll manage to be so poor again.
Hopefully we won't lose any more players to injury! And a return for Taylor would be welcome.
Dai may know, but if Marty Moore was just bad, rather than Cruse being shattered and therefore reducing the strength of our scrum, I'd be tempted to bring Stuart back onto the bench.
Our attack still looked good against tigers, and I like the fact we tried to hold onto the ball, even if we need to pay attention when it's in our half. We do need to obviously finish chances a bit better, but I don't think we'll manage to be so poor again.
39
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Eng vs Ire ruck and carry marks
« on: March 18, 2018, 12:20:54 PM »
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14Q6PawJZ3Q0UzTPguYxX8DbQBGFwwHwPWT-7L0dxhKo/edit?usp=sharing
Thoughts.
We were heavily resourcing the ruck in the first half I believe, but the Irish were smart, and really weren't competing hard for turnovers, meaning we were constantly under resourced in attack. Our attack often looked very poor, and going far too deep. Farrell runs too hot and cold for my liking, sometimes he'll run, and look good doing it, but so often the defence can just ignore him, since he's looking only sideways, crabs sideways, and passes, all whilst very deep. Then at other times he'll get it just right. Ford on the other hand nearly always takes it right up to the line and the defence always takes him seriously. Both made errors today, but I'd still personally like to see Ford with Teo and Joseph. Or of course, Farrell continuing to improve his running game (and actually combining the passing and running, so fixing defenders then giving the pass).
We blew so many chances it's not even funny, which is a repeat really of previous games. A slight lack of cutting edge, and a very slow to organise attack. If this is due to fatigue due to heavy training, it'll hopefully come good when we actually have a proper conditioning program aiming for players to peak for games. We still make some bad choices though, and whilst fatigued might be able to explain this, giving tap and go carries to Itoje and Robshaw, after 70 minutes or more, just seems insane to me.
In terms of individuals, whilst the scrum struggled a little, the Irish are probably one of the best scrummaging sides out there. I'd give Sinckler further starts, and look to move on from Cole even on the bench. I was expecting to see some serious impact from Cole, to make us all realise it's just that he's shattered, but there was no apparent reaction. Let's see if Williams can continue to push hard. Kruis was busy, especially early in the 2nd half when every ruck just seemed to come his way, but I believe he's not been with England for at least some of the time, so will likely be fresher than Launchbury, and yet it didn't feel like he was a significant step up. I wonder if this is Eddie reverting by to Kruis, or trying to use Kruis as a fresher player in the hope of getting something out of this game. James Haskell/Chris Robshaw proved for me the importance of having proper flankers. Sam Simmonds slightly underwhelmed, neither fulfilling the big carrier role, nor the extra flanker role that well. His pace could still be interesting on the flanks though, worth continuing with.
I'm not as despondent as many, but if it turns out the players are being beasted for no long term gains, then I'm worried, I guess we'll only know come the world cup.
Thoughts.
We were heavily resourcing the ruck in the first half I believe, but the Irish were smart, and really weren't competing hard for turnovers, meaning we were constantly under resourced in attack. Our attack often looked very poor, and going far too deep. Farrell runs too hot and cold for my liking, sometimes he'll run, and look good doing it, but so often the defence can just ignore him, since he's looking only sideways, crabs sideways, and passes, all whilst very deep. Then at other times he'll get it just right. Ford on the other hand nearly always takes it right up to the line and the defence always takes him seriously. Both made errors today, but I'd still personally like to see Ford with Teo and Joseph. Or of course, Farrell continuing to improve his running game (and actually combining the passing and running, so fixing defenders then giving the pass).
We blew so many chances it's not even funny, which is a repeat really of previous games. A slight lack of cutting edge, and a very slow to organise attack. If this is due to fatigue due to heavy training, it'll hopefully come good when we actually have a proper conditioning program aiming for players to peak for games. We still make some bad choices though, and whilst fatigued might be able to explain this, giving tap and go carries to Itoje and Robshaw, after 70 minutes or more, just seems insane to me.
In terms of individuals, whilst the scrum struggled a little, the Irish are probably one of the best scrummaging sides out there. I'd give Sinckler further starts, and look to move on from Cole even on the bench. I was expecting to see some serious impact from Cole, to make us all realise it's just that he's shattered, but there was no apparent reaction. Let's see if Williams can continue to push hard. Kruis was busy, especially early in the 2nd half when every ruck just seemed to come his way, but I believe he's not been with England for at least some of the time, so will likely be fresher than Launchbury, and yet it didn't feel like he was a significant step up. I wonder if this is Eddie reverting by to Kruis, or trying to use Kruis as a fresher player in the hope of getting something out of this game. James Haskell/Chris Robshaw proved for me the importance of having proper flankers. Sam Simmonds slightly underwhelmed, neither fulfilling the big carrier role, nor the extra flanker role that well. His pace could still be interesting on the flanks though, worth continuing with.
I'm not as despondent as many, but if it turns out the players are being beasted for no long term gains, then I'm worried, I guess we'll only know come the world cup.
40
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Huge post on England France, ruck marks etc.
« on: March 12, 2018, 12:41:08 PM »
Apologies for the table, best i could do here, without wasting hours.
A = Attacking ruck marks
D = Defensive ruck marks
T = Total ruck marks
TR = Total rucks
m = Minutes
RM = Ruck marks
OPI = Overall Positive Interactions (total rucks, tackles, carries, defenders beaten, minus missed tackles, penalties, turnovers etc) Lineout data not included.
So with the final read out!
In my mind you'd expect average RM to be around 2 for a decent performance, much lower and there's issues.
OPI does not include lineouts taken or stolen, that would boost some players scores, and rightly so. Nor does it include scrums, which will drain front row and locks more than others.
Play Lawes at lock, he's simply not active enough in the breakdown to be a blindside. Get a proper blindside to make up for the lost workrate in the breakdown from losing one of the other locks (or bring Lawes on after 55/60, when replacements are full of energy, think this is the best option).
Itoje had a huge game all round.
Simmonds needs to work in wider spaces, I don't think he suits us at 8, but even with a slow start in the first half, I'd still like to see him at 7, I don't think his clearouts are that good, but he has the pace to be first man, which makes it less of an important issue. Obviously with no Hughes or BV, it's not really an option.
Our replacements brought some real energy in the carry and clearout. Does that mean they should start? Perhaps in some cases, but I don't think it's usually fair to compare someone who knows they've only got a limited amount of time, they will always produce a more energetic performance.
I think George put his hand up well. Maybe not much of the flashy stuff, but certainly a very solid performance that doesn't compare badly to Hartley's workrate in the ruck or tackle, looked more energetic to me.
All that said, our breakdown isn't good enough. With 116 attacking rucks, we were first around 61 times. Basically 50% of the time there was a Frenchman at our ruck before we were! Add on relatively poor clearouts, often taking 2+ players to remove a threat, which really ruins the quick and lightly resourced ruck play we seem to be targeting.
There was a large difference at half time with regards to our attitude towards opposition rucks, suddenly we were targeting them, not necessarily very well for the most part, but we did, and I think it helped. I hope we continue with that.
I'd probably bring Joseph back in, I don't think Teo added much, and Joseph has better hands and defence.
I do think our attack can look very sharp, and if we can play the way we want, we'll be dangerous, but teams aren't just going to lie down and let us. If we're over training and tired, then it'll come good, if not, we're in trouble and need to adapt our play.
Ruck marks come from an idea by the Demented Mole blog, linked here: https://dementedmole.com/2013/10/30/ruck-marks/
Carry marks are a first time try to try and grade carries, and get away from a meaningless Meters Carried score breakdown here:
--------
First we need to decide what we're classing as a carry, I'd suggest: Not 2 steps forwards, a mile away from the defence and a pass, but getting to a defender and either beating him or getting tackled. Or a clean break through the defensive line (and no one quite lays a hand on you).
1 - A carry, but taken behind the gainline and taken down fast. 1 mark is to show that at least you're offering yourself for work.
2 - Reach the gainline basically, get taken down quickly, or taken behind the gainline but hold your feet for long enough for support to arrive.
3 - Either bend the gainline before going down, reach the gainline but into a good body position (long reach placement to make it harder to turn over and give quicker cleaner ball), reach the gainline but hold your feet for enough time for good support to arrive.
4 - Make solid yards past the gainline, normally going to take a defender being beaten (but not essential and not important to the scoring). Make it harder for a counter ruck to to the speed of the ball available and being on the front foot.
5 - Clean break, either a great running line or great attacking work to beat defenders to make the break.
Key points to remember. Phase play we're looking for the gainline basically, but on kick return a good running return would effectively replace the word gainline for first contact, with a 1 being for if you get knocked back by the tackler, rather than going forwards (even if you then get dragged back a little). Set piece play would also need to be on first contact, but it's a trickier aspect to judge, so maybe get some practice and see what seems fair?
-------------
Full breakdown + notes and thoughts
1st half
Attack
Mako 1,2,1,1,1,2,3,2,2,2,2 11/19
George 3,1,3,2,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,2,2 15/27
Cole 2,4,2,2,1,2,2,2,1,1,2,1 12/22
Launch 3,2,2,1,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,3,2,2 15/30
Itoje 2,2,2,1,2,2,2,2,2,2,1,2,2,2,3,1,2,2,2,1,2 21/39
Lawes 1,2,2,2,1,2,2 7/12
Robshaw 2,1,2,2,2,2,2,1,2,2 10/18
Hughes 2,2,1,2,2,2 6/11
Care 3
Ford 3
Daly 2,2
Farrell 2,1,2,2,3,3,2
Teo 3,2,2,2,2,2
May
Watson 3,2,2,1,2
LCD
Marler
Sinckler
Haskell
Simmonds 2,2 2/4
Wiggles
Joseph
Brown
----------
Defence
Mako 3 1/3
George
Cole 2 1/2
Launch
Itoje 2 1/2
Lawes 1 1/1
Robshaw 3,2,5 3/10
Hughes 3 1/3
Care
Ford
Daly
Farrell
Teo
May
Watson
LCD
Marler
Sinckler
Haskell
Simmonds
Wiggles
Joseph
Brown
---------
First man
Mako 1,1,1
George 1,1,1,1,1,1
Cole 1,1
Launch 1,1,1,1
Itoje 1,1,1,1
Lawes 1,1,1
Robshaw 1
Hughes 1,1
Care
Ford
Daly
Farrell 1
Teo 1,1,1
May
Watson
LCD
Marler
Sinckler
Haskell
Simmonds 1
Wiggles
Joseph
Brown
---------
Forwards carries
Mako 3,2,3,1
George 1*
Cole
Launch 1,1,3,2,1
Itoje 3,2
Lawes 2,2,1,2,3,2,1
Robshaw 2,1,3,2,1,3,2
Hughes 3,3,3
LCD
Marler
Sinckler
Haskell
Simmonds 2
00.50 Who's man is that? Does Hughes cut in to hit the 10, leaving the 8 clear, or is that Daly's man? I know it was forward because of the high pressure Hughes put on, but if that offload had come off, or he'd got the pass away quicker, then we're in trouble.
4.15, I'm classing that as a maul, not a ruck, so not giving ruck marks. Good work from Mako to rip it clear though.
5.23 Lawes is moving when he takes the ball, gets to the gainline, but stopped, 2 point carry in my mind.
5.30 Cheeky pickup from Hughes. Is this a 3 or a 4 carry? I'll give a 3, but think it's easily argued to a 4?
5.36 Robshaw just gets a 2 trying the same trick as Hughes, lucky not to end up a 1 if he'd have been taken back further.
5.41 Lawes with another 2, makes the gainline, but makes no impression on it.
5.59 Launch with a pass out the back, sent onto Robshaw, who gets stopped hard behind the gainline. Itoje really fluffing his lines at the breakdown, not giving him anything for that.
6.29 What are we calling that carry? 1 or 2? Keeps his feet for a while and is only a meter away from which in theory should give the support time and gave a nice long placement of the ball, but France still make a mess of it, not his fault that our support wasn't on him so recording as a 2 for now. Why the ref didn't blow up for Fra 5 playing the ball off his feet I wasn't sure then, and I'm still not now.
7.05 Giving Robshaw a 3 for this carry.
9.00 Lawes gets the block on the boxkick, not sure if that goes into stats anywhere, but should count towards positive interactions. He also made the steal in the lineout not too long before this.
10.12 Launch gets over the gainline, French prop doesn't come close to rolling away, and Launch gets done for holding on, awful call I reckon. Though why was the support so far to start, and why was Cole hesitating so much before going into the ruck. Like he was waiting for the French player to get into position, so he could clear him out (or try to). Cole and Watson get 1s there, Itoje gets nothing, he's not really attending that ruck, he's just watching it from close by.
12.18 Unsympathetic from Farrell there, really seemed to whizz it into Daly, who didn't seem to be expecting it.
17.56 Happens to be Launch again, 2 scoring carry, but the French tackler completely disrupts the clearout, but the clearout still wasn't much use.
21m What a weapon Daly's boot is. We're competing at the opposition breakdown even less than usual at the moment.
22m Hughes goes down, you hear the cry of pain over the ref mike.
26.50 George makes a carry, gets tackled behind the gainline, but keeps crawling, until it forces Garces to go back to a pen advantage. Giving him a 1.
28.45 What are we calling that? 1 or 2? Sort of goes past the first tackler, but bent back to him, then a nice long placement. Marking as a 2 for now.
29.03 I feel embarassed for Lawes there. The replay just shows how poorly positioned he was, the 9 could have knocked him back there.
29.17 Just to say I think Fords defence has been pretty much first class so far, he's a small guy sure, but he's getting players down, even the big guys. Losing yards, sure, but he's far from a turnstile.
30.18. Talking about Ford, Basta on a huge charge, Ford and Farrell go high and low respectively, and he makes maybe 4 yards in contact, well contained.
30.40 We're just letting them play with quick ball here
31.20 From the lineout around 30.10, we've just let them play with fast ball, with only Cole having a small nibble. Unsurprisingly they got within 5, and had a pen advantage, only Machenaud suffering from brain freeze saved us there.
For the most part we still refuse to engage the defensive ruck, even with half chances showing themselves, we could help our cause so much I feel. Our attack has flashes, but ball tends to be too slow to exploit the defence.
Half time reached. Robshaw having a quieter game than usual at the breakdown, but providing a lot of carries. Itoje doing a lot at the breakdown (a lot very early in the game, now more normal paced). Mako seems a bit more lively, as does Cole, not by a huge amount, but a bit. A lot of it could of course simply be the game falling their way. The first 10 minutes had Itoje seemingly at every other ruck, does that mean he's the perfect 7? Of course not, just that sometimes the game falls your way. The same can be said with tackles, you can't make the opposition run down your channel. So whilst these analyses are useful, they should also be looked at across a few games, to see trends, since single instances aren't going to be enough to draw large conclusions.
Whilst there's a lot of things that if it's down to heavy training, could turn around a lot of our game, our near refusal to compete on opposition ball seems to be a gameplan, and it's going to cost us points, maybe if we had Willis in there at 7 (not suggesting he's ready) we'd change our attitude a bit? From memory, we do seem to try a bit more at the breakdown in the 2nd half (same as Scotland I think). In fact, maybe I'll separate the two halves, and we can compare the differences.
2nd half
Attack
Mako 2,1,2 3/5
George 2,2,2,1,3,1,2,2,1 9/16
Cole 1,2,2,2 4/7
Launch 2,2,2,2,1 5/9
Itoje 2,2,3,1,1,2,2,1,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2 16/30
Lawes 1,1,2,2,3,2,2,3 8/16
Robshaw 4,2,4,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,4,2,2,2 14/34
Hughes
Care
Ford 2,2,1,1
Daly 2,2,2
Farrell 3,1,2,1,2
Teo 2,1,2,2,2,2
May
Watson 2,1,2,2
LCD 2,2,3,2,2,2,3,4,2,2,1,3,1,2 14/31
Marler 2,3,1,1,4,2,2,2,1,1,1,3,3,2,4,3 16/35
Sinckler 3,3,1,2,2,2,2 7/15
Haskell 2,3,2,1,2,2,2,2,2,3,2,3 12/26
Simmonds 2,2,2,2,3,2,2,2,1,2,2,2,2,2 14/28
Wiggles 2,2
Joseph 2,3,1,2
Brown 2,2,2,2
----------
Defence
Mako 2,1 2/3
George 2,2,3,2 4/9
Cole 1,2 2/3
Launch
Itoje 3,2,1,2,2,1 6/11
Lawes 3,2 2/5
Robshaw 3,5,2,1,5,5,2,1 8/24
Hughes
Care
Ford 1
Daly
Farrell 1
Teo 1
May 3
Watson
LCD 3,3 2/6
Marler 0/0
Sinckler 2,2 2/4
Haskell 1 1/1
Simmonds 2,2,1 3/5
Wiggles
Joseph 2
Brown
---------
First man
Mako 1
George 1,1
Cole
Launch 1,1,1
Itoje 1,1,1,1
Lawes
Robshaw 1,1,1
Hughes
Care
Ford
Daly
Farrell
Teo 1,1
May
Watson
LCD 1,1,1
Marler 1,1,1,1
Sinckler 1,1,1
Haskell 1,1
Simmonds 1,1,1
Wiggles
Joseph
Brown 1
---------
Forwards carries
Mako 3,2
George 1
Cole 3,1
Launch 3,1
Itoje 2,2,3,3
Lawes 2,2,2,3
Robshaw 3,2,3
Hughes
LCD 4,1,4,2,2
Marler 4
Sinckler 4,3,2,2,3,2,4,4
Haskell 4,2,2,3,3,4,2
Simmonds 2,1,2,1,3,1,2,2
40.15 And as if by magic, we've worked hard to disrupt the first two French rucks of the half.
40.42 That's the second time Teo has lined up on Basta that I can remember, just not a sensible move...
41.24 Sorry, but when your 8 has time to pick his spot and 20 yards to run forward, he should be doing more than Simmonds managed. Taken down by Fickou on his own.
42.15 We're driving the man through on the carry, and seemingly running pods of 3 a bit more now. Securing the ball is easier.
42.20 Simmonds hits Basta, only one winner. Simmonds gets to the gainline by virtue of his acceleration though. Not what we need at 8, but if he can fulfil the role of the 7, it would be nice to have!
44.01 Mako gets turned over because Ford is trying to clear out Basta. Why is George so late to arrive? He's out there with Mako the whole time, the other 6 players in the pack had been involved in the previous 2 phases, what was he waiting for?
45.40 Can someone explain to Farrell and Mako that if they wander 3m in front of the ruck, or simply fall over away from the ruck, it doesn't actually count for anything? Farrell can have 2 for coming back to try and make up for his mistake, Mako is getting feck all for having a lie down.
45.47 Simmonds is picked up and returned by the French 10 and 12. Neither of whom are exactly beasts. Gives the French the momentum required to drive over and win the pen.
50.00 Can someone else look at this. I've given Launch a 2 for guard, I've given Lawes a 1, since he comes in and just sort of falls to his knees. He's there, but he's not acheiving anything.
52m Launch off for Hask. Launch was slow to get back for the France break, Lawes got back fast. I can see why Launch comes off here, but do feel that if our blindside had been making carries (0 for this half), or hitting rucks (as opposed to scoring just 1,1 at this point), Launch may have had more running in his legs. At this point in the half, every other player in the pack has done more than Lawes (except perhaps tackles, which isn't nothing, but equally, without counting them, may not be the case). One eyed Wasp being a bit sour, perhaps, but even ignoring Launch, Lawes simply does not contribute enough at the breakdown, and it doesn't feel like he's contributing enough elsewhere to really justify it.
55.05 For the arguments that Robshaw doesn't offer anything in the lineout, he's just won a good steal at the front here.
57.40 We're clearly going for the breakdown more now, not always that effective, but it's helping, including another turnover for Robshaw (good work by George too).
63.20 I've given Itoje a 2 and a first player there, but it's so tempting to give him a 1. He's gone straight off his feet and another ref in a bit of a mood could easily blow for that. Needless and sloppy.
64.17 The replacement forwards, Sinckler and Hask especially, are actually carrying with some venom. Easier when you know you've only got a short amount of time I guess. Makes us look a lot better though. Still seem slow at times. We're perhaps slow though because we have a set play called, so everyone needs to get ready. Looks pretty at first, but rather ineffective and extravagent. We do the same thing a few times, Farrell stands deep, passes early, the rush (because it was slow ball, it was easy to rush) close in, we don't get around it, turnover.
66.04 This kills me. There's our no.7 for 2 years, and our current no.6 (albeit now at lock) looking at a player who's been tackled right in front of them, they're the closest to the ball, with the french 9 the nearest support, and neither of them even consider it. I'm admitting now I'm probably extra harsh on players when it comes to scoring defensive rucks. They'll get a 1 if wiped out immediately, and feck all if I feel they've acheived feck all at the ruck (getting wiped out required someone to make a slightly special effort at least). I don't think anyone would really argue. I'm not missing hundreds or anything, so don't be concerned.
70.53, not sure if the set piece move was still played, but Joseph acts as Ford, Farrell plays himself, Teo takes out Basta nicely, and Daly goes on a great break, good offload too, shame the frenhman got a hand to it. Our attack, especially when planned, does look good.
70.18 Again, Joseph acts as Ford from set piece, lovely line from Teo, and Farrell times it well. I do still think that Farrell works far better when he follows a set plan, rather than trying to work off the cuff. Thankfully this time the plan worked because the defence cut in on Farrell (that's a testament to his improving attacking threat this 6N).
71.50 Tough to tell with the angles, but really not sure if kicking that was the right option from Brown, there again, a more accurate kick would have likely seen May score, so it perhaps was, just needed to be done better (I of course am assuming the pass would have been a good one anyway!).
72.40 Think we're lucky not to be turned there, as usual the support is half a second later than it should have been, Robshaw and Simmonds. The next phase sees Haskell and Itoje work very hard to remove someone so thoroughly from the ruck, that they've left the ruck anyway. Given them both 2s, think it's fair, would like to give them nothing.
73 OK, so maybe Eddies right. Half the time we are first to the ruck, we're straight off our feet anyway, and again a ref could happily ping us for that.
73.08 Lovely by Sinckler. All the defence thinks he's going for the charge, he dummies it, but flings it to Lawes, who almost makes it.
73.18 Lovely hands from Daly for Mays try.
75.50 Lawes scores a 3 for the carry, but I wish I could give him a 1, due to the offload to the frenchman.
80.08 Why did Wiggles ask for the pen? Why not take the free play, kick it up in the air and see if we can get lucky with a catch and try?
81.34 Another lovely touch from Sinckler there. Good take from Hask too.
82.36 LCD should have been called out for a dummy there.
With some front foot ball our attack looked better, mostly from set piece though, when we know our roles, does our attack look good. We seemed to tighten up a bit at the end, which helped. Subs made a big impact, as they should. 2nd half had a clear change in attitude towards the opposition breakdown, we don't have the players to always do much to it, but hopefully we'll start paying it more attention in general.
Name A D T TR m RM/m Average RM OPI OPI/m
Mako 24 6 30 17 64 0.47 1.76 38 0.59
George 43 9 52 28 64 0.81 1.86 45 0.70
Cole 29 5 34 19 58 0.59 1.79 30 0.52
Launch 39 0 39 20 52 0.75 1.95 38 0.73
Itoje 69 13 82 44 84 0.98 1.86 63 0.75
Lawes 28 6 34 18 84 0.40 1.89 50 0.60
Robshaw 52 34 86 35 84 1.02 2.46 50 0.60
Hughes 11 30 14 7 24 0.58 2.00 11 0.46
LCD 31 6 37 16 20 1.85 2.31 29 1.45
Marler 35 0 35 16 20 1.75 2.19 20 1.00
Sinckler 15 4 19 9 26 0.73 2.11 28 1.08
Haskell 26 1 27 13 32 0.84 2.08 26 0.81
Simmonds 32 5 37 19 60 0.62 1.95 39 0.65
A = Attacking ruck marks
D = Defensive ruck marks
T = Total ruck marks
TR = Total rucks
m = Minutes
RM = Ruck marks
OPI = Overall Positive Interactions (total rucks, tackles, carries, defenders beaten, minus missed tackles, penalties, turnovers etc) Lineout data not included.
So with the final read out!
In my mind you'd expect average RM to be around 2 for a decent performance, much lower and there's issues.
OPI does not include lineouts taken or stolen, that would boost some players scores, and rightly so. Nor does it include scrums, which will drain front row and locks more than others.
Play Lawes at lock, he's simply not active enough in the breakdown to be a blindside. Get a proper blindside to make up for the lost workrate in the breakdown from losing one of the other locks (or bring Lawes on after 55/60, when replacements are full of energy, think this is the best option).
Itoje had a huge game all round.
Simmonds needs to work in wider spaces, I don't think he suits us at 8, but even with a slow start in the first half, I'd still like to see him at 7, I don't think his clearouts are that good, but he has the pace to be first man, which makes it less of an important issue. Obviously with no Hughes or BV, it's not really an option.
Our replacements brought some real energy in the carry and clearout. Does that mean they should start? Perhaps in some cases, but I don't think it's usually fair to compare someone who knows they've only got a limited amount of time, they will always produce a more energetic performance.
I think George put his hand up well. Maybe not much of the flashy stuff, but certainly a very solid performance that doesn't compare badly to Hartley's workrate in the ruck or tackle, looked more energetic to me.
All that said, our breakdown isn't good enough. With 116 attacking rucks, we were first around 61 times. Basically 50% of the time there was a Frenchman at our ruck before we were! Add on relatively poor clearouts, often taking 2+ players to remove a threat, which really ruins the quick and lightly resourced ruck play we seem to be targeting.
There was a large difference at half time with regards to our attitude towards opposition rucks, suddenly we were targeting them, not necessarily very well for the most part, but we did, and I think it helped. I hope we continue with that.
I'd probably bring Joseph back in, I don't think Teo added much, and Joseph has better hands and defence.
I do think our attack can look very sharp, and if we can play the way we want, we'll be dangerous, but teams aren't just going to lie down and let us. If we're over training and tired, then it'll come good, if not, we're in trouble and need to adapt our play.
Ruck marks come from an idea by the Demented Mole blog, linked here: https://dementedmole.com/2013/10/30/ruck-marks/
Carry marks are a first time try to try and grade carries, and get away from a meaningless Meters Carried score breakdown here:
--------
First we need to decide what we're classing as a carry, I'd suggest: Not 2 steps forwards, a mile away from the defence and a pass, but getting to a defender and either beating him or getting tackled. Or a clean break through the defensive line (and no one quite lays a hand on you).
1 - A carry, but taken behind the gainline and taken down fast. 1 mark is to show that at least you're offering yourself for work.
2 - Reach the gainline basically, get taken down quickly, or taken behind the gainline but hold your feet for long enough for support to arrive.
3 - Either bend the gainline before going down, reach the gainline but into a good body position (long reach placement to make it harder to turn over and give quicker cleaner ball), reach the gainline but hold your feet for enough time for good support to arrive.
4 - Make solid yards past the gainline, normally going to take a defender being beaten (but not essential and not important to the scoring). Make it harder for a counter ruck to to the speed of the ball available and being on the front foot.
5 - Clean break, either a great running line or great attacking work to beat defenders to make the break.
Key points to remember. Phase play we're looking for the gainline basically, but on kick return a good running return would effectively replace the word gainline for first contact, with a 1 being for if you get knocked back by the tackler, rather than going forwards (even if you then get dragged back a little). Set piece play would also need to be on first contact, but it's a trickier aspect to judge, so maybe get some practice and see what seems fair?
-------------
Full breakdown + notes and thoughts
1st half
Attack
Mako 1,2,1,1,1,2,3,2,2,2,2 11/19
George 3,1,3,2,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,2,2 15/27
Cole 2,4,2,2,1,2,2,2,1,1,2,1 12/22
Launch 3,2,2,1,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,3,2,2 15/30
Itoje 2,2,2,1,2,2,2,2,2,2,1,2,2,2,3,1,2,2,2,1,2 21/39
Lawes 1,2,2,2,1,2,2 7/12
Robshaw 2,1,2,2,2,2,2,1,2,2 10/18
Hughes 2,2,1,2,2,2 6/11
Care 3
Ford 3
Daly 2,2
Farrell 2,1,2,2,3,3,2
Teo 3,2,2,2,2,2
May
Watson 3,2,2,1,2
LCD
Marler
Sinckler
Haskell
Simmonds 2,2 2/4
Wiggles
Joseph
Brown
----------
Defence
Mako 3 1/3
George
Cole 2 1/2
Launch
Itoje 2 1/2
Lawes 1 1/1
Robshaw 3,2,5 3/10
Hughes 3 1/3
Care
Ford
Daly
Farrell
Teo
May
Watson
LCD
Marler
Sinckler
Haskell
Simmonds
Wiggles
Joseph
Brown
---------
First man
Mako 1,1,1
George 1,1,1,1,1,1
Cole 1,1
Launch 1,1,1,1
Itoje 1,1,1,1
Lawes 1,1,1
Robshaw 1
Hughes 1,1
Care
Ford
Daly
Farrell 1
Teo 1,1,1
May
Watson
LCD
Marler
Sinckler
Haskell
Simmonds 1
Wiggles
Joseph
Brown
---------
Forwards carries
Mako 3,2,3,1
George 1*
Cole
Launch 1,1,3,2,1
Itoje 3,2
Lawes 2,2,1,2,3,2,1
Robshaw 2,1,3,2,1,3,2
Hughes 3,3,3
LCD
Marler
Sinckler
Haskell
Simmonds 2
00.50 Who's man is that? Does Hughes cut in to hit the 10, leaving the 8 clear, or is that Daly's man? I know it was forward because of the high pressure Hughes put on, but if that offload had come off, or he'd got the pass away quicker, then we're in trouble.
4.15, I'm classing that as a maul, not a ruck, so not giving ruck marks. Good work from Mako to rip it clear though.
5.23 Lawes is moving when he takes the ball, gets to the gainline, but stopped, 2 point carry in my mind.
5.30 Cheeky pickup from Hughes. Is this a 3 or a 4 carry? I'll give a 3, but think it's easily argued to a 4?
5.36 Robshaw just gets a 2 trying the same trick as Hughes, lucky not to end up a 1 if he'd have been taken back further.
5.41 Lawes with another 2, makes the gainline, but makes no impression on it.
5.59 Launch with a pass out the back, sent onto Robshaw, who gets stopped hard behind the gainline. Itoje really fluffing his lines at the breakdown, not giving him anything for that.
6.29 What are we calling that carry? 1 or 2? Keeps his feet for a while and is only a meter away from which in theory should give the support time and gave a nice long placement of the ball, but France still make a mess of it, not his fault that our support wasn't on him so recording as a 2 for now. Why the ref didn't blow up for Fra 5 playing the ball off his feet I wasn't sure then, and I'm still not now.
7.05 Giving Robshaw a 3 for this carry.
9.00 Lawes gets the block on the boxkick, not sure if that goes into stats anywhere, but should count towards positive interactions. He also made the steal in the lineout not too long before this.
10.12 Launch gets over the gainline, French prop doesn't come close to rolling away, and Launch gets done for holding on, awful call I reckon. Though why was the support so far to start, and why was Cole hesitating so much before going into the ruck. Like he was waiting for the French player to get into position, so he could clear him out (or try to). Cole and Watson get 1s there, Itoje gets nothing, he's not really attending that ruck, he's just watching it from close by.
12.18 Unsympathetic from Farrell there, really seemed to whizz it into Daly, who didn't seem to be expecting it.
17.56 Happens to be Launch again, 2 scoring carry, but the French tackler completely disrupts the clearout, but the clearout still wasn't much use.
21m What a weapon Daly's boot is. We're competing at the opposition breakdown even less than usual at the moment.
22m Hughes goes down, you hear the cry of pain over the ref mike.
26.50 George makes a carry, gets tackled behind the gainline, but keeps crawling, until it forces Garces to go back to a pen advantage. Giving him a 1.
28.45 What are we calling that? 1 or 2? Sort of goes past the first tackler, but bent back to him, then a nice long placement. Marking as a 2 for now.
29.03 I feel embarassed for Lawes there. The replay just shows how poorly positioned he was, the 9 could have knocked him back there.
29.17 Just to say I think Fords defence has been pretty much first class so far, he's a small guy sure, but he's getting players down, even the big guys. Losing yards, sure, but he's far from a turnstile.
30.18. Talking about Ford, Basta on a huge charge, Ford and Farrell go high and low respectively, and he makes maybe 4 yards in contact, well contained.
30.40 We're just letting them play with quick ball here
31.20 From the lineout around 30.10, we've just let them play with fast ball, with only Cole having a small nibble. Unsurprisingly they got within 5, and had a pen advantage, only Machenaud suffering from brain freeze saved us there.
For the most part we still refuse to engage the defensive ruck, even with half chances showing themselves, we could help our cause so much I feel. Our attack has flashes, but ball tends to be too slow to exploit the defence.
Half time reached. Robshaw having a quieter game than usual at the breakdown, but providing a lot of carries. Itoje doing a lot at the breakdown (a lot very early in the game, now more normal paced). Mako seems a bit more lively, as does Cole, not by a huge amount, but a bit. A lot of it could of course simply be the game falling their way. The first 10 minutes had Itoje seemingly at every other ruck, does that mean he's the perfect 7? Of course not, just that sometimes the game falls your way. The same can be said with tackles, you can't make the opposition run down your channel. So whilst these analyses are useful, they should also be looked at across a few games, to see trends, since single instances aren't going to be enough to draw large conclusions.
Whilst there's a lot of things that if it's down to heavy training, could turn around a lot of our game, our near refusal to compete on opposition ball seems to be a gameplan, and it's going to cost us points, maybe if we had Willis in there at 7 (not suggesting he's ready) we'd change our attitude a bit? From memory, we do seem to try a bit more at the breakdown in the 2nd half (same as Scotland I think). In fact, maybe I'll separate the two halves, and we can compare the differences.
2nd half
Attack
Mako 2,1,2 3/5
George 2,2,2,1,3,1,2,2,1 9/16
Cole 1,2,2,2 4/7
Launch 2,2,2,2,1 5/9
Itoje 2,2,3,1,1,2,2,1,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2 16/30
Lawes 1,1,2,2,3,2,2,3 8/16
Robshaw 4,2,4,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,4,2,2,2 14/34
Hughes
Care
Ford 2,2,1,1
Daly 2,2,2
Farrell 3,1,2,1,2
Teo 2,1,2,2,2,2
May
Watson 2,1,2,2
LCD 2,2,3,2,2,2,3,4,2,2,1,3,1,2 14/31
Marler 2,3,1,1,4,2,2,2,1,1,1,3,3,2,4,3 16/35
Sinckler 3,3,1,2,2,2,2 7/15
Haskell 2,3,2,1,2,2,2,2,2,3,2,3 12/26
Simmonds 2,2,2,2,3,2,2,2,1,2,2,2,2,2 14/28
Wiggles 2,2
Joseph 2,3,1,2
Brown 2,2,2,2
----------
Defence
Mako 2,1 2/3
George 2,2,3,2 4/9
Cole 1,2 2/3
Launch
Itoje 3,2,1,2,2,1 6/11
Lawes 3,2 2/5
Robshaw 3,5,2,1,5,5,2,1 8/24
Hughes
Care
Ford 1
Daly
Farrell 1
Teo 1
May 3
Watson
LCD 3,3 2/6
Marler 0/0
Sinckler 2,2 2/4
Haskell 1 1/1
Simmonds 2,2,1 3/5
Wiggles
Joseph 2
Brown
---------
First man
Mako 1
George 1,1
Cole
Launch 1,1,1
Itoje 1,1,1,1
Lawes
Robshaw 1,1,1
Hughes
Care
Ford
Daly
Farrell
Teo 1,1
May
Watson
LCD 1,1,1
Marler 1,1,1,1
Sinckler 1,1,1
Haskell 1,1
Simmonds 1,1,1
Wiggles
Joseph
Brown 1
---------
Forwards carries
Mako 3,2
George 1
Cole 3,1
Launch 3,1
Itoje 2,2,3,3
Lawes 2,2,2,3
Robshaw 3,2,3
Hughes
LCD 4,1,4,2,2
Marler 4
Sinckler 4,3,2,2,3,2,4,4
Haskell 4,2,2,3,3,4,2
Simmonds 2,1,2,1,3,1,2,2
40.15 And as if by magic, we've worked hard to disrupt the first two French rucks of the half.
40.42 That's the second time Teo has lined up on Basta that I can remember, just not a sensible move...
41.24 Sorry, but when your 8 has time to pick his spot and 20 yards to run forward, he should be doing more than Simmonds managed. Taken down by Fickou on his own.
42.15 We're driving the man through on the carry, and seemingly running pods of 3 a bit more now. Securing the ball is easier.
42.20 Simmonds hits Basta, only one winner. Simmonds gets to the gainline by virtue of his acceleration though. Not what we need at 8, but if he can fulfil the role of the 7, it would be nice to have!
44.01 Mako gets turned over because Ford is trying to clear out Basta. Why is George so late to arrive? He's out there with Mako the whole time, the other 6 players in the pack had been involved in the previous 2 phases, what was he waiting for?
45.40 Can someone explain to Farrell and Mako that if they wander 3m in front of the ruck, or simply fall over away from the ruck, it doesn't actually count for anything? Farrell can have 2 for coming back to try and make up for his mistake, Mako is getting feck all for having a lie down.
45.47 Simmonds is picked up and returned by the French 10 and 12. Neither of whom are exactly beasts. Gives the French the momentum required to drive over and win the pen.
50.00 Can someone else look at this. I've given Launch a 2 for guard, I've given Lawes a 1, since he comes in and just sort of falls to his knees. He's there, but he's not acheiving anything.
52m Launch off for Hask. Launch was slow to get back for the France break, Lawes got back fast. I can see why Launch comes off here, but do feel that if our blindside had been making carries (0 for this half), or hitting rucks (as opposed to scoring just 1,1 at this point), Launch may have had more running in his legs. At this point in the half, every other player in the pack has done more than Lawes (except perhaps tackles, which isn't nothing, but equally, without counting them, may not be the case). One eyed Wasp being a bit sour, perhaps, but even ignoring Launch, Lawes simply does not contribute enough at the breakdown, and it doesn't feel like he's contributing enough elsewhere to really justify it.
55.05 For the arguments that Robshaw doesn't offer anything in the lineout, he's just won a good steal at the front here.
57.40 We're clearly going for the breakdown more now, not always that effective, but it's helping, including another turnover for Robshaw (good work by George too).
63.20 I've given Itoje a 2 and a first player there, but it's so tempting to give him a 1. He's gone straight off his feet and another ref in a bit of a mood could easily blow for that. Needless and sloppy.
64.17 The replacement forwards, Sinckler and Hask especially, are actually carrying with some venom. Easier when you know you've only got a short amount of time I guess. Makes us look a lot better though. Still seem slow at times. We're perhaps slow though because we have a set play called, so everyone needs to get ready. Looks pretty at first, but rather ineffective and extravagent. We do the same thing a few times, Farrell stands deep, passes early, the rush (because it was slow ball, it was easy to rush) close in, we don't get around it, turnover.
66.04 This kills me. There's our no.7 for 2 years, and our current no.6 (albeit now at lock) looking at a player who's been tackled right in front of them, they're the closest to the ball, with the french 9 the nearest support, and neither of them even consider it. I'm admitting now I'm probably extra harsh on players when it comes to scoring defensive rucks. They'll get a 1 if wiped out immediately, and feck all if I feel they've acheived feck all at the ruck (getting wiped out required someone to make a slightly special effort at least). I don't think anyone would really argue. I'm not missing hundreds or anything, so don't be concerned.
70.53, not sure if the set piece move was still played, but Joseph acts as Ford, Farrell plays himself, Teo takes out Basta nicely, and Daly goes on a great break, good offload too, shame the frenhman got a hand to it. Our attack, especially when planned, does look good.
70.18 Again, Joseph acts as Ford from set piece, lovely line from Teo, and Farrell times it well. I do still think that Farrell works far better when he follows a set plan, rather than trying to work off the cuff. Thankfully this time the plan worked because the defence cut in on Farrell (that's a testament to his improving attacking threat this 6N).
71.50 Tough to tell with the angles, but really not sure if kicking that was the right option from Brown, there again, a more accurate kick would have likely seen May score, so it perhaps was, just needed to be done better (I of course am assuming the pass would have been a good one anyway!).
72.40 Think we're lucky not to be turned there, as usual the support is half a second later than it should have been, Robshaw and Simmonds. The next phase sees Haskell and Itoje work very hard to remove someone so thoroughly from the ruck, that they've left the ruck anyway. Given them both 2s, think it's fair, would like to give them nothing.
73 OK, so maybe Eddies right. Half the time we are first to the ruck, we're straight off our feet anyway, and again a ref could happily ping us for that.
73.08 Lovely by Sinckler. All the defence thinks he's going for the charge, he dummies it, but flings it to Lawes, who almost makes it.
73.18 Lovely hands from Daly for Mays try.
75.50 Lawes scores a 3 for the carry, but I wish I could give him a 1, due to the offload to the frenchman.
80.08 Why did Wiggles ask for the pen? Why not take the free play, kick it up in the air and see if we can get lucky with a catch and try?
81.34 Another lovely touch from Sinckler there. Good take from Hask too.
82.36 LCD should have been called out for a dummy there.
With some front foot ball our attack looked better, mostly from set piece though, when we know our roles, does our attack look good. We seemed to tighten up a bit at the end, which helped. Subs made a big impact, as they should. 2nd half had a clear change in attitude towards the opposition breakdown, we don't have the players to always do much to it, but hopefully we'll start paying it more attention in general.
41
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Ruck marks, workrates, notes on the England game.
« on: February 27, 2018, 07:37:29 AM »
Posted this elsewhere, but thought you fellows may be interested too. Did ruck marks on the england game, then rodneyregis did the tables from the scores and other stats.
Attack
Mako 1,1,2,3,1,1,2,2,2,1,1
Hartley 2,2,1,1,3,2,1,3,3,2,2,2,2,3,2,2
Cole 1,2,2,2,1,2,1,2,2,1,2,2,2,3,2,2,2,2,2,2
Launch 2,1,1,4,4,1,2,2,3,3,2,1,1,2,2,2,2,2,2,1,2,3,2,2,2,2,2,3,1
Itoje 3,1,2,1,1,2,3,2,1,2,3,4,2,2,3,1,3,2,2,3,2,1,2,2,2
Lawes 1,2,1,3,2,2,2,2,1,2,2,2,4,2,1,2,3,1,2
Robshaw 2,1,2,5,3,1,2,1,2,1,4,3,4,4,4,1,2,2,2,2,1,1,2,4
Hughes 3,2,2,2,2,2,1,3,3,2,1
Care 3,1,3
Ford 2,4,2,1,1
May 4,2,3,2,4,2,2,2,2,2,1,2
Farrell 1,3,1,2,1
Joseph 3,2,2,2,2,2,3,2,3,2,2,2
Watson 2,2,2,2,2,2
Brown 4,1,3,2,2,4
George 2,2,3,1,2,2,2,2,2,2,4,2,2,2,3
Marler 3,2,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,1,2,3,1,2
Williams 2,2,1,3,1,2,3,2,2,2,1,2,3,3,2,3
Kruis 1,2,4,2,1,2,1
Underhill 2,2,2,1,1,1,2,2
Wiggles
Teo 2,2,2,1,2,3
Nowell 3,2,4
Defence
Mako 1,3,1,1
Hartley 3,3
Cole 3,1,3,3,1,1,2,2
Launch 2,1
Itoje 1,1,3,2,3,2,2,2
Lawes 1,1,2,1,3,1,3,3,1,2,1,2,2
Robshaw 1,3,5,3,1,2,1,3,2,3,3,2,3,1
Hughes 1
Care 2
Ford
May 2
Farrell 2
Joseph
Watson
Brown 1,2
George
Marler
Williams
Kruis
Underhill 2,5,1,1
Wiggles
Teo
Nowell
Hughes 1st carry was over the gainline past the tackle. 2nd carry is running it back from kick, bumps Gray, flattens the tighthead, goes through Gray for a few more yards along witht he 6, Scotland have no chance of rucking that. Hard to really say there's ruck marks since the players bound to Hughes just come off their feet. Quick ball though.
3rd carry is from the base of a ruck, he makes a meter, but has his leg pulled forward from under him, Ford clears the 7.
4th carry takes it out of a disrupted maul, gets sent back to more or less where he started (2 steps forward, 2 steps back).
5th carry from the restart, no one is really interested, 2 bring him down but they're not bothering for the breakdown. Would go down as yards made, but didn't really go past the first contact.
6th Carry, takes the ball at pace from Care on a good line, makes 6/7 meters.
7th Carry, from the base of a ruck, drives over gray, makes a yard or two after contact. Not the most effective, but not a bad thing
8th carry, care to hughes, makes 2 yards, takes 2 to bring him down, releases and stands.
9th carry. Makes another 6-7 yards I guess, good quick front foot ball
10th carry, hit as soon as he got the ball, no yards.
11th carry, 2nd half, Brown receives a kick gives it to Hughes coming at pace. Hughes goes through the first tackler (tighthead, leaves him limping), makes yards after first contact.
0.57 I'm not an expert in defence, but that looks like Farrell just rushed up for no good reason, and didn't even block the player he was rushing from going past him.
1.20. By my eye that's Lawes' man to clear, doesn't get close. There again, if he's supporting his own bodyweight...
4.24 2nd turnover pen. Itoje had just carried, Launch has just put in a big hit in the previous ruck, and Cole was present there, yet launch is the first man to support the next one too (Watson carry). Launch has no pace to hit it with, Lawes comes in at pace but has no effect, Itoje is behind the other two, not much to do. And Cole comes around to look at it. Where are the rest of the pack? Could be argued that the tackler prevented a good clearout, but Launch was never in a position to hit it hard enough, and it didn't seem to stop Lawes.
5.47 I'm not sure why Lawes wasn't awarded that penalty (by the standards so far), but I can't give him 5, and can only give him 3.
6.19 I've no idea how Owens judges the ruck. How he felt Robshaw was supporting his own weight there, yet Lawes in the previous one wasn't a good bet? Seems like supporting weight isn't important, just if you can hold onto the ball for a long time.
7.50ish? That maul was awful. Something in the heavily trained excuse?
8.07 surely that's not the shape our defensive line is supposed to be? Hughes and Hartley well behind.
We just look tired, missing tackles we really shouldn't be.
10.14 Why did Ford call for that ball? It was a bad kick because he was under pressure already.
12.15 I don't really want to give Hartley anything for that. He basically missed, maybe bounced off Itoje, who also failed to shift the player. Thankfully we got the pen for supposedly not releasing. Hands were on the ground anyway. I do like that Farrell ran it up, he keeps adding to his attack, even if he's not a Manu or a Teo, it'll help.
18.19 Was that Ford or Farrell kicking? Needed to find touch. We're getting schooled in the kicking game. What happened to our tactical kicking against Wales?
22.31 Launch wasn't paying attention there, he assumed Mako was in front, so he wouldn't be hit, but with Watson lying sideways, he's arugably aprt of the gate.
23.44 Giving Robshaw a turnover there, even though we came back to the advantage.
26.15 or so, why do we just let the scots play with quick ball? Hughes finally forces the turnover by holding the player up, and interfering with him trying to pass the ball off.
28 less said about that Brown pass the bett.. worse, what the hell was that? He's then being mr angry to his team mates.
29.48 Digby has already pointed this out, but the scottish openside (the 6 this time) at the scrum gets off, tackles Ford, get's back to his feet, and then Robshaw arrives and fails to shift him. This is what we have Haskell for.
30.46 Blatant neck crank on Farrell there.
33.58 I've just found all of Itoje's yards
. I'm not giving Brown points for doing something a mile away from the actual ruck and giving away the pen, killing our best attacking ball yet.
35 Launch wraps up the ball in that maul and wins us the turnover.
36.27 repeat feature when going wide from a set piece is Robshaw arriving a second too late to actually be useful.
36.37 Launch has just been involved in the previous breakdown, Robshaw carries, Itoje just lies down on one of the tighthead, and is out of the ruck, the 6 locks in, and Care has a little go, then Launch has come around to hit him hard, but he's locked in already (so only scores a 1). If we're insisting on pods of two, the support has to be far more accurate than Itoje was.
So, we reckon anything will happen from the face scratch on Hughes?
37.24 Hughes fails to get close enough to Huw Jones, but he has a go, Farrell just sort of watches it happen.
End half.
--------------------------
40.47 Itoje just basically misses the ruck again, no excuses, thankfully Cole actually puts in a half decent hit.
41.10 Launch is turning into a good solid carrier. A few rucks ago he was given the ball with 2 defenders and still managed to make a yard, with better ball he makes yards.
41.32 How is that not hands in the ruck, coming around the side etc etc???
Really enjoy Farrell attacking more himself, very nice for the try. Been very poor in defence though.
46.43 Launch does what he's told, Referee doesn't like that Laidlaw throws a bad pass.
49.10ish. Lawes keeps trying to be a flanker on defensive breakdowns, but he's just not very good at getting the body position (and its not really his fault).
50.54 Farrell dive or taken off the ball badly?
59 something. Pen goes against Launch, but it was Cole driving through early.
Thoughts at this point (because that's when I'm thinking them). Robshaw is doing a huge amount of work, but he's just not fast enough to be an openside, stick him at 6 and play someone else at 7. Lawes is too tall to be a backrow. He just isn't effective enough in the breakdown due to his height and frame. I don't know if Launch is just lucky this game, but he has a lot of 2s because he's often first man there, he's not pacy, and I'm not suggesting he should be 6/7 in the slightest, but he does seem to read the game well. Itoje really needs to work on his breakdown, he just lacks the accuracy required, not something he'll lose headlines, or gain headlines for, but required for England to do well. Hartley hits a lot of rucks, but he doesn't go chasing them as such, right place right time kind of thing. Cole is like a lesser version of Hartley, where he looks out for something to do even less, and is quite grateful if there's a breakdown close enough for him to rest a hand on or get into guard for. May hits rucks hard! OK, he's normally up against other backs, but by god he smashes them.
63.50 What was Lawes thinking when he steps on the ball and out of the SH hands?
67.23 Whats the plan here? We have to assume Farrell is calling for it, he's extremely deep, wastes time worrying about his left to right pass, has to do something else, and gives it to Nowell to try and resuce him.
70.00 How doesn't Owens give the penalty against England there?
70.25ish, Launch again manages to make a yard or two after contact. He's never going to be a Hughes or a BillyV, but his all round game now is right up there.
70.46 I don't know what it is with Farrell. He never seems to be quick enough to throw the pass he wants to, but thankfully he seems to realise he's missed his chance, and chooses differently. Quick hands there sees Williams make a good carry, but it needs a good accurate pass, Farrell doesn't take it, and gives it to Launch who does well considering (yard or two after contact).
70.58 Why does Marler just give him a cuddle? Another ruck taht could have easily been a pen against us.
74.18 Surely tackle complete and he can't eget back up?
76.25 Another ruck that could have easily been a pen against us. Kruis manages to hit it just about hard eough to stop it. Then 76.35 we get lucky not to be done for blocking (Itoje has the cheek to complain about being tackled off the ball).
77.26ish. Marler has now put in repeatedly poor clearouts, just isn't getting any force into it, and just sort of pirouhettes around the jackaller. Has another at the last ruck of the game.
Obvious issues is this doesn't distinguish between someone doing a lot of nothing at rucks, compared to someone maybe hitting less, but being useful. Still overall paints a slightly clearer picture. Even some 1s are useful, but I'd think another measure removing all 1s, or a ratio of 1s vs everything else might make things a bit clearer too. Being a post during a box kick is fine, but if you're only doing that all game, you're not shifting your weight.
Unsurprisingly the subs tend to have higher numbers in a lot of circumstances. I'm not sure if Underhills minutes have been adjusted for his 10 minute break.
We'd also need to look at something like if someone makes positive yardage after contact, or passes the gainline in phase play, since not every carry is equal (that still wouldn't show everything, but it would be more than simply Carries, or Meters Made).
In addition I don't believe this includes lineout takes or steals, which should be recorded somewhere. If someone has been a lifter that's another issue too, but there's only so much we can reasonably do
.
Obviously a time breakdown of the rucks (I could have done it to a degree actually, not too difficult) could allow us to see what sort of ratio players are carrying vs supporting. For example Lawes made 10 carries and hit 19 attacking rucks in 80 minutes, and a total of 123 attacking rucks (according to ESPN). So he'd have had 113 attacking rucks which were in effect available to him. Robshaw made 17 carries and.... I've fucked up the ruck marks a little, there should never be a 5 in the attacking column, but it's misplaced, rather than a double record I believe, since I awarded Robshaw two 5s. Any way, 106 attacking rucks, and he was involved in 23 (assuming my records aren't too far out!!!). Obviously there's only so many rucks to hit, and only so much hitting required (we required more), but it could give a better idea of players roles and workrate.
Robshaw and Launch's workrates are massively high (as always). Mako is lower than we've seen before, having to be on the pitch for so long seems to be tiring him (fair enough, he's got scrums to do as well). Cole was fine in the rucks seemingly, but not enough anywhere else. Personally I think considering the effectiveness of Hughes' carries, he did OK for someone who's only played 20 minutes in the last few months (and looked knackered after those!).
Final problem for people, how can we effectively combine these ruck marks, along with a 1st/2nd/3rd man to the ruck statistic? Remembering that sometimes the first man is ineffective, and it's the 2nd man who smashes it etc, 1st is good, but not always the be all and end all.
Attack
Mako 1,1,2,3,1,1,2,2,2,1,1
Hartley 2,2,1,1,3,2,1,3,3,2,2,2,2,3,2,2
Cole 1,2,2,2,1,2,1,2,2,1,2,2,2,3,2,2,2,2,2,2
Launch 2,1,1,4,4,1,2,2,3,3,2,1,1,2,2,2,2,2,2,1,2,3,2,2,2,2,2,3,1
Itoje 3,1,2,1,1,2,3,2,1,2,3,4,2,2,3,1,3,2,2,3,2,1,2,2,2
Lawes 1,2,1,3,2,2,2,2,1,2,2,2,4,2,1,2,3,1,2
Robshaw 2,1,2,5,3,1,2,1,2,1,4,3,4,4,4,1,2,2,2,2,1,1,2,4
Hughes 3,2,2,2,2,2,1,3,3,2,1
Care 3,1,3
Ford 2,4,2,1,1
May 4,2,3,2,4,2,2,2,2,2,1,2
Farrell 1,3,1,2,1
Joseph 3,2,2,2,2,2,3,2,3,2,2,2
Watson 2,2,2,2,2,2
Brown 4,1,3,2,2,4
George 2,2,3,1,2,2,2,2,2,2,4,2,2,2,3
Marler 3,2,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,1,2,3,1,2
Williams 2,2,1,3,1,2,3,2,2,2,1,2,3,3,2,3
Kruis 1,2,4,2,1,2,1
Underhill 2,2,2,1,1,1,2,2
Wiggles
Teo 2,2,2,1,2,3
Nowell 3,2,4
Defence
Mako 1,3,1,1
Hartley 3,3
Cole 3,1,3,3,1,1,2,2
Launch 2,1
Itoje 1,1,3,2,3,2,2,2
Lawes 1,1,2,1,3,1,3,3,1,2,1,2,2
Robshaw 1,3,5,3,1,2,1,3,2,3,3,2,3,1
Hughes 1
Care 2
Ford
May 2
Farrell 2
Joseph
Watson
Brown 1,2
George
Marler
Williams
Kruis
Underhill 2,5,1,1
Wiggles
Teo
Nowell
Hughes 1st carry was over the gainline past the tackle. 2nd carry is running it back from kick, bumps Gray, flattens the tighthead, goes through Gray for a few more yards along witht he 6, Scotland have no chance of rucking that. Hard to really say there's ruck marks since the players bound to Hughes just come off their feet. Quick ball though.
3rd carry is from the base of a ruck, he makes a meter, but has his leg pulled forward from under him, Ford clears the 7.
4th carry takes it out of a disrupted maul, gets sent back to more or less where he started (2 steps forward, 2 steps back).
5th carry from the restart, no one is really interested, 2 bring him down but they're not bothering for the breakdown. Would go down as yards made, but didn't really go past the first contact.
6th Carry, takes the ball at pace from Care on a good line, makes 6/7 meters.
7th Carry, from the base of a ruck, drives over gray, makes a yard or two after contact. Not the most effective, but not a bad thing
8th carry, care to hughes, makes 2 yards, takes 2 to bring him down, releases and stands.
9th carry. Makes another 6-7 yards I guess, good quick front foot ball
10th carry, hit as soon as he got the ball, no yards.
11th carry, 2nd half, Brown receives a kick gives it to Hughes coming at pace. Hughes goes through the first tackler (tighthead, leaves him limping), makes yards after first contact.
0.57 I'm not an expert in defence, but that looks like Farrell just rushed up for no good reason, and didn't even block the player he was rushing from going past him.
1.20. By my eye that's Lawes' man to clear, doesn't get close. There again, if he's supporting his own bodyweight...
4.24 2nd turnover pen. Itoje had just carried, Launch has just put in a big hit in the previous ruck, and Cole was present there, yet launch is the first man to support the next one too (Watson carry). Launch has no pace to hit it with, Lawes comes in at pace but has no effect, Itoje is behind the other two, not much to do. And Cole comes around to look at it. Where are the rest of the pack? Could be argued that the tackler prevented a good clearout, but Launch was never in a position to hit it hard enough, and it didn't seem to stop Lawes.
5.47 I'm not sure why Lawes wasn't awarded that penalty (by the standards so far), but I can't give him 5, and can only give him 3.
6.19 I've no idea how Owens judges the ruck. How he felt Robshaw was supporting his own weight there, yet Lawes in the previous one wasn't a good bet? Seems like supporting weight isn't important, just if you can hold onto the ball for a long time.
7.50ish? That maul was awful. Something in the heavily trained excuse?
8.07 surely that's not the shape our defensive line is supposed to be? Hughes and Hartley well behind.
We just look tired, missing tackles we really shouldn't be.
10.14 Why did Ford call for that ball? It was a bad kick because he was under pressure already.
12.15 I don't really want to give Hartley anything for that. He basically missed, maybe bounced off Itoje, who also failed to shift the player. Thankfully we got the pen for supposedly not releasing. Hands were on the ground anyway. I do like that Farrell ran it up, he keeps adding to his attack, even if he's not a Manu or a Teo, it'll help.
18.19 Was that Ford or Farrell kicking? Needed to find touch. We're getting schooled in the kicking game. What happened to our tactical kicking against Wales?
22.31 Launch wasn't paying attention there, he assumed Mako was in front, so he wouldn't be hit, but with Watson lying sideways, he's arugably aprt of the gate.
23.44 Giving Robshaw a turnover there, even though we came back to the advantage.
26.15 or so, why do we just let the scots play with quick ball? Hughes finally forces the turnover by holding the player up, and interfering with him trying to pass the ball off.
28 less said about that Brown pass the bett.. worse, what the hell was that? He's then being mr angry to his team mates.
29.48 Digby has already pointed this out, but the scottish openside (the 6 this time) at the scrum gets off, tackles Ford, get's back to his feet, and then Robshaw arrives and fails to shift him. This is what we have Haskell for.
30.46 Blatant neck crank on Farrell there.
33.58 I've just found all of Itoje's yards
. I'm not giving Brown points for doing something a mile away from the actual ruck and giving away the pen, killing our best attacking ball yet.35 Launch wraps up the ball in that maul and wins us the turnover.
36.27 repeat feature when going wide from a set piece is Robshaw arriving a second too late to actually be useful.
36.37 Launch has just been involved in the previous breakdown, Robshaw carries, Itoje just lies down on one of the tighthead, and is out of the ruck, the 6 locks in, and Care has a little go, then Launch has come around to hit him hard, but he's locked in already (so only scores a 1). If we're insisting on pods of two, the support has to be far more accurate than Itoje was.
So, we reckon anything will happen from the face scratch on Hughes?
37.24 Hughes fails to get close enough to Huw Jones, but he has a go, Farrell just sort of watches it happen.
End half.
--------------------------
40.47 Itoje just basically misses the ruck again, no excuses, thankfully Cole actually puts in a half decent hit.
41.10 Launch is turning into a good solid carrier. A few rucks ago he was given the ball with 2 defenders and still managed to make a yard, with better ball he makes yards.
41.32 How is that not hands in the ruck, coming around the side etc etc???
Really enjoy Farrell attacking more himself, very nice for the try. Been very poor in defence though.
46.43 Launch does what he's told, Referee doesn't like that Laidlaw throws a bad pass.
49.10ish. Lawes keeps trying to be a flanker on defensive breakdowns, but he's just not very good at getting the body position (and its not really his fault).
50.54 Farrell dive or taken off the ball badly?
59 something. Pen goes against Launch, but it was Cole driving through early.
Thoughts at this point (because that's when I'm thinking them). Robshaw is doing a huge amount of work, but he's just not fast enough to be an openside, stick him at 6 and play someone else at 7. Lawes is too tall to be a backrow. He just isn't effective enough in the breakdown due to his height and frame. I don't know if Launch is just lucky this game, but he has a lot of 2s because he's often first man there, he's not pacy, and I'm not suggesting he should be 6/7 in the slightest, but he does seem to read the game well. Itoje really needs to work on his breakdown, he just lacks the accuracy required, not something he'll lose headlines, or gain headlines for, but required for England to do well. Hartley hits a lot of rucks, but he doesn't go chasing them as such, right place right time kind of thing. Cole is like a lesser version of Hartley, where he looks out for something to do even less, and is quite grateful if there's a breakdown close enough for him to rest a hand on or get into guard for. May hits rucks hard! OK, he's normally up against other backs, but by god he smashes them.
63.50 What was Lawes thinking when he steps on the ball and out of the SH hands?
67.23 Whats the plan here? We have to assume Farrell is calling for it, he's extremely deep, wastes time worrying about his left to right pass, has to do something else, and gives it to Nowell to try and resuce him.
70.00 How doesn't Owens give the penalty against England there?
70.25ish, Launch again manages to make a yard or two after contact. He's never going to be a Hughes or a BillyV, but his all round game now is right up there.
70.46 I don't know what it is with Farrell. He never seems to be quick enough to throw the pass he wants to, but thankfully he seems to realise he's missed his chance, and chooses differently. Quick hands there sees Williams make a good carry, but it needs a good accurate pass, Farrell doesn't take it, and gives it to Launch who does well considering (yard or two after contact).
70.58 Why does Marler just give him a cuddle? Another ruck taht could have easily been a pen against us.
74.18 Surely tackle complete and he can't eget back up?
76.25 Another ruck that could have easily been a pen against us. Kruis manages to hit it just about hard eough to stop it. Then 76.35 we get lucky not to be done for blocking (Itoje has the cheek to complain about being tackled off the ball).
77.26ish. Marler has now put in repeatedly poor clearouts, just isn't getting any force into it, and just sort of pirouhettes around the jackaller. Has another at the last ruck of the game.
Quote from: RodneyRegis
I've sorted by ruck marks per 10 rucks, to show actual effectiveness hitting rucks.
Here is ruck marks per 10 mins (right hand column):Code: [Select]D A T M RM/M M/RM RM/10 min
Marler 24 0 24 11 2.182 0.458 21.8
Williams 31 0 31 15 2.067 0.484 20.7
Kruis 13 0 13 8 1.625 0.615 16.3
George 33 0 33 24 1.375 0.727 13.8
Robshaw 56 33 89 80 1.113 0.899 11.1
Underhill 22 0 22 25 0.880 1.136 8.8
Launch 59 3 62 72 0.861 1.161 8.6
Itoje 52 16 68 80 0.850 1.176 8.5
Cole 37 16 53 65 0.815 1.226 8.2
Lawes 37 23 60 80 0.750 1.333 7.5
Hartley 33 6 39 56 0.696 1.436 7.0
Hughes 23 1 24 55 0.436 2.292 4.4
Mako 17 6 23 69 0.333 3.000 3.3
Quote from: RodneyRegis
And then with other involvements - positive involvements per 10 minutesCode: [Select]T M Net P10M
Kruis 13 8 13 16.3
Williams 31 15 24 16.0
Marler 24 11 15 13.6
George 33 24 28 11.7
Robshaw 89 80 65 8.1
Launch 62 72 55 7.6
Itoje 68 80 53 6.6
Underhill 22 25 15 6.0
Hughes 24 55 32 5.8
Lawes 60 80 46 5.8
Hartley 39 56 31 5.5
Cole 53 65 33 5.1
Mako 23 69 34 4.9
Obvious issues is this doesn't distinguish between someone doing a lot of nothing at rucks, compared to someone maybe hitting less, but being useful. Still overall paints a slightly clearer picture. Even some 1s are useful, but I'd think another measure removing all 1s, or a ratio of 1s vs everything else might make things a bit clearer too. Being a post during a box kick is fine, but if you're only doing that all game, you're not shifting your weight.
Unsurprisingly the subs tend to have higher numbers in a lot of circumstances. I'm not sure if Underhills minutes have been adjusted for his 10 minute break.
We'd also need to look at something like if someone makes positive yardage after contact, or passes the gainline in phase play, since not every carry is equal (that still wouldn't show everything, but it would be more than simply Carries, or Meters Made).
In addition I don't believe this includes lineout takes or steals, which should be recorded somewhere. If someone has been a lifter that's another issue too, but there's only so much we can reasonably do
.Obviously a time breakdown of the rucks (I could have done it to a degree actually, not too difficult) could allow us to see what sort of ratio players are carrying vs supporting. For example Lawes made 10 carries and hit 19 attacking rucks in 80 minutes, and a total of 123 attacking rucks (according to ESPN). So he'd have had 113 attacking rucks which were in effect available to him. Robshaw made 17 carries and.... I've fucked up the ruck marks a little, there should never be a 5 in the attacking column, but it's misplaced, rather than a double record I believe, since I awarded Robshaw two 5s. Any way, 106 attacking rucks, and he was involved in 23 (assuming my records aren't too far out!!!). Obviously there's only so many rucks to hit, and only so much hitting required (we required more), but it could give a better idea of players roles and workrate.
Robshaw and Launch's workrates are massively high (as always). Mako is lower than we've seen before, having to be on the pitch for so long seems to be tiring him (fair enough, he's got scrums to do as well). Cole was fine in the rucks seemingly, but not enough anywhere else. Personally I think considering the effectiveness of Hughes' carries, he did OK for someone who's only played 20 minutes in the last few months (and looked knackered after those!).
Final problem for people, how can we effectively combine these ruck marks, along with a 1st/2nd/3rd man to the ruck statistic? Remembering that sometimes the first man is ineffective, and it's the 2nd man who smashes it etc, 1st is good, but not always the be all and end all.
42
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Jack Willis, good player or terminator in disguise?
« on: February 13, 2018, 08:45:20 AM »
Posted this for a different forum, but I'm sure you lot will enjoy it .
OK, so the RodneyRegis numbers doesn't include lineouts. Willis took two lineouts, including one at the tail right near the end of the game, he also got up to put serious pressure and made a mess of one of the Quins lineouts (not a steal though). I am not including these.
Willis was part of 48 rucks. That gives him a total of 82 positive interactions. Please note the list from the Aus game. Launch and Robshaw were the highest that played the whole game with 45 and 46 respectively (that's their rucks hit, and everything else). Itoje had the highest rate at 6.2 every 10 minutes. Willis was basically 10 for every 10. 1 positive interaction every minute of the game. This was in a game where every player would have had to have covered extra distance to make up for the man down. The man is an absolute machine.
There were 21 attacking rucks, and 27 defensive. I only caught him ruck inspecting twice (one may be excused if he thought the box kick was coming), the other times I felt he was at least serving some purpose.
He successfully cleaned up 3 loose and bouncing balls, one from a lineout he slid in, grabbed it, got to his feet in one smooth movement, and proceeded to beat the first defender and carry another 5 yards with 2/3 defenders on him.
He caught one of Wasps short restarts from Cips, which is a very handy skill as well.
In terms of an Eddie type 7, not too many big clearouts on attack, but then it mostly wasn't required, and I didn't see him fail on one. There was one blindside break from the scrum, where Wallace was over the ball and Willis cleared him out cleanly, definitely capable of big clearouts. Should he have been there first? Maybe, but he could have been expecting Thompson to offload or pass before going to ground. Did potentially seem a little slow of the scrum later in the game, but it may be he's been told to shove as the blindside, rather than look to break.
A few times he didn't get given a ruck mark, as he was supporting the carrier through, and just came off his feet as they both went down, still providing a useful service though.
When the ball comes to where he is, he definitely seems to be a preferred carrier, so won't be clearing out as much.
First successful turnover 33.40 with a counter ruck, Matthews then throws it up off the ground and is penalised. Sinckler throws the ball at Willis' face, Willis reacts fast enough to catch it (does lots of crazy catch practice with Hask judging from the videos!), Ward complains he played the 9 (nope, the 9 just got squashed by Quins own man), Sinkler then starts F-ing and blinding, gets sent back 10.
2nd turnover, steals the ball at 38.45, killing a promising Quins attack. 3 Quins on him, enormous strength shown.
3rd turnover, Guy Thompson asks if they can counter ruck, Barnes says yes, Willis obliges.
4th turnover 54.17 He'd seriously slowed good attacking ball a few phases earlier, and now turnsover 5m from the tryline. And it's not that he's got lightweights trying to clear him, Sinkler hits him, Ward has a go, Chisholm throws in a shoulder too. He took a massive hit from Matthews in that earlier slow down too.
5th turnover 73.45. Tested the previous ruck but gave it up, got this one.
75m and Willis is still making powerful carries.
81.50 Slows Quins right down after they took a quick tap, gives our defence a chance to organise.
Overall, bloody hell. Compared to the Aus ruck marks and interactions, Willis is a mile ahead, same is true of the previous international game I did. I also did a Wasps game from a while back, where Guy Thompson was massively busy, hitting 35 rucks and a ton of other stuff, and still only got to 64 total interactions. OK, I didn't break down the actual score of each ruck for Willis, as with the changes, it's going to be lower due to less hits being required, but 5 turnovers is 25 points on it's own. He slowed ball enough to score probably another 12 points at least from failed steals, and had the big hit on Wallace, so take 10 rucks away from 48, and even if the rest are just 1 pointers (which they aren't, guard is 2 and will makeup a good number of those), he still scores 79 ruck marks absolute minimum. More likely to be pushing the 100 mark would be my guess.
Asides:
I know Hughes gets a lot of stick here, but he knows the laws and adaptations. Very late in the game Matthews moves the ball with his hands, and Hughes yells he's moved it and goes for him. Barnes penalises him, Hughes tells him he moved it, Barnes says he has to lift it (but that's not true as of this weekend, moving it with the hands is enough). He's generally been smart with the no offside line when no ruck (not that it applies anymore), and the tackled, release, stand and run again. Where he lets himself down, including this Matthews one, is he doesn't consider what is likely to happen. He's sure he's right (and he often is), but doesn't think about how the ref is likely to react.
That tackle from Alofa on Bassett is nasty, they replay it, but don't realise that it's well after the whistle on the replay, Alofa doesn't even have hold of Bassett when the whistle goes.
.Quote from: Raggs
Just posting this here for reference of an international performance (AIs vs Aus):Quote from: RaggsStealing this from rugbyplanet forum, thank you RodneyRegis for doing it.QuoteOK - so positive involvements:
Ruck attended (so a 3 ruck mark is one interaction, as is a 1 ruck mark)
Kick, pass, run, offload, break, defender beaten, tackle completed
negative involvements
Missed tackle
pen
turnover conceded
Net positive involvements
Itoje 39 in 63, 6.2 positive involvements every 10 mins
Hughes 37 in 63, 5.9
Hartley 33 in 57, 5.8
Robshaw 46 in 80, 5.8
Launch 45 in 80, 5.6
Lawes 37 in 80, 4.6
Underhill 7 in 17, 4.1
Simmonds 7 in 17, 4.1
Williams 5 in 13, 3.5
MArler 5 in 16, 3.1
Cole 20 in 67, 3.0
Make 19 in 64, 3.0
Hartley's work rate for front rower is impressive. Itoje & Hughes constantly involved, and the engine on Robshaw and Launchbury is incredible.
Again, there are caveats, such as ruck effectiveness isn't included, nor is whether it was a dominant tackle, or a try saver, or a miss due to a pressurising rush, or just a bad miss. Nor is a penalty scored more harshly than a knock on etc.
OK, so the RodneyRegis numbers doesn't include lineouts. Willis took two lineouts, including one at the tail right near the end of the game, he also got up to put serious pressure and made a mess of one of the Quins lineouts (not a steal though). I am not including these.
Willis was part of 48 rucks. That gives him a total of 82 positive interactions. Please note the list from the Aus game. Launch and Robshaw were the highest that played the whole game with 45 and 46 respectively (that's their rucks hit, and everything else). Itoje had the highest rate at 6.2 every 10 minutes. Willis was basically 10 for every 10. 1 positive interaction every minute of the game. This was in a game where every player would have had to have covered extra distance to make up for the man down. The man is an absolute machine.
There were 21 attacking rucks, and 27 defensive. I only caught him ruck inspecting twice (one may be excused if he thought the box kick was coming), the other times I felt he was at least serving some purpose.
He successfully cleaned up 3 loose and bouncing balls, one from a lineout he slid in, grabbed it, got to his feet in one smooth movement, and proceeded to beat the first defender and carry another 5 yards with 2/3 defenders on him.
He caught one of Wasps short restarts from Cips, which is a very handy skill as well.
In terms of an Eddie type 7, not too many big clearouts on attack, but then it mostly wasn't required, and I didn't see him fail on one. There was one blindside break from the scrum, where Wallace was over the ball and Willis cleared him out cleanly, definitely capable of big clearouts. Should he have been there first? Maybe, but he could have been expecting Thompson to offload or pass before going to ground. Did potentially seem a little slow of the scrum later in the game, but it may be he's been told to shove as the blindside, rather than look to break.
A few times he didn't get given a ruck mark, as he was supporting the carrier through, and just came off his feet as they both went down, still providing a useful service though.
When the ball comes to where he is, he definitely seems to be a preferred carrier, so won't be clearing out as much.
First successful turnover 33.40 with a counter ruck, Matthews then throws it up off the ground and is penalised. Sinckler throws the ball at Willis' face, Willis reacts fast enough to catch it (does lots of crazy catch practice with Hask judging from the videos!), Ward complains he played the 9 (nope, the 9 just got squashed by Quins own man), Sinkler then starts F-ing and blinding, gets sent back 10.
2nd turnover, steals the ball at 38.45, killing a promising Quins attack. 3 Quins on him, enormous strength shown.
3rd turnover, Guy Thompson asks if they can counter ruck, Barnes says yes, Willis obliges.
4th turnover 54.17 He'd seriously slowed good attacking ball a few phases earlier, and now turnsover 5m from the tryline. And it's not that he's got lightweights trying to clear him, Sinkler hits him, Ward has a go, Chisholm throws in a shoulder too. He took a massive hit from Matthews in that earlier slow down too.
5th turnover 73.45. Tested the previous ruck but gave it up, got this one.
75m and Willis is still making powerful carries.
81.50 Slows Quins right down after they took a quick tap, gives our defence a chance to organise.
Overall, bloody hell. Compared to the Aus ruck marks and interactions, Willis is a mile ahead, same is true of the previous international game I did. I also did a Wasps game from a while back, where Guy Thompson was massively busy, hitting 35 rucks and a ton of other stuff, and still only got to 64 total interactions. OK, I didn't break down the actual score of each ruck for Willis, as with the changes, it's going to be lower due to less hits being required, but 5 turnovers is 25 points on it's own. He slowed ball enough to score probably another 12 points at least from failed steals, and had the big hit on Wallace, so take 10 rucks away from 48, and even if the rest are just 1 pointers (which they aren't, guard is 2 and will makeup a good number of those), he still scores 79 ruck marks absolute minimum. More likely to be pushing the 100 mark would be my guess.
Asides:
I know Hughes gets a lot of stick here, but he knows the laws and adaptations. Very late in the game Matthews moves the ball with his hands, and Hughes yells he's moved it and goes for him. Barnes penalises him, Hughes tells him he moved it, Barnes says he has to lift it (but that's not true as of this weekend, moving it with the hands is enough). He's generally been smart with the no offside line when no ruck (not that it applies anymore), and the tackled, release, stand and run again. Where he lets himself down, including this Matthews one, is he doesn't consider what is likely to happen. He's sure he's right (and he often is), but doesn't think about how the ref is likely to react.
That tackle from Alofa on Bassett is nasty, they replay it, but don't realise that it's well after the whistle on the replay, Alofa doesn't even have hold of Bassett when the whistle goes.
43
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Morning all!
« on: February 11, 2018, 06:13:32 AM »
Game day! Can't wait to see Hughes back on the pitch, nor to see the Robson, Cips, Eastmond axis running again. Tommy Taylor too! Very exciting.
44
Wasps Rugby Discussion / Morning all!
« on: February 04, 2018, 09:29:07 AM »
Bit of a late one (at least here), but still morning!
Very excited about seeing some of our boys out there, especially Stuart (who I expect to impress) and Umaga (who I'm hoping to see something that encourages me to think he can make it). Very excited about seeing Tommy Taylor running again too!
Those of you who remember me reporting the dog fight, and me subsequently getting some injuries, I went to a lawyer today to start the process of a small claim against the owner, whether anything will come of it, we'll have to see.
Very excited about seeing some of our boys out there, especially Stuart (who I expect to impress) and Umaga (who I'm hoping to see something that encourages me to think he can make it). Very excited about seeing Tommy Taylor running again too!
Those of you who remember me reporting the dog fight, and me subsequently getting some injuries, I went to a lawyer today to start the process of a small claim against the owner, whether anything will come of it, we'll have to see.
